1
00:00:14,449 --> 00:00:22,549
[Music]

2
00:00:17,710 --> 00:00:24,890
thinking aloud conversations on the

3
00:00:22,550 --> 00:00:34,939
leading edge of knowledge and discovery

4
00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:37,700
with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove hello

5
00:00:34,939 --> 00:00:41,149
I'm Jeffrey Mishlove today we'll be

6
00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:44,239
exploring the flicker filter model of

7
00:00:41,149 --> 00:00:47,660
consciousness with me is Professor Iman

8
00:00:44,238 --> 00:00:50,808
Sporus who is professor of psychology at

9
00:00:47,659 --> 00:00:53,768
King's University College at Western

10
00:00:50,808 --> 00:00:56,738
University Canada in London Ontario

11
00:00:53,768 --> 00:01:00,469
where he's been teaching courses on

12
00:00:56,738 --> 00:01:04,158
consciousness for more than 30 years he

13
00:01:00,469 --> 00:01:07,450
is also author of authentic knowing the

14
00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:11,229
convergence of science and spiritual

15
00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:14,600
aspiration and alterations of

16
00:01:11,228 --> 00:01:18,078
consciousness and empirical analysis for

17
00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:20,328
social scientists most recently he is

18
00:01:18,078 --> 00:01:22,609
co-author with Julia Moss 'bridge who

19
00:01:20,328 --> 00:01:25,158
has been a recent guest on the new

20
00:01:22,609 --> 00:01:27,140
thinking aloud channel of an important

21
00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:30,759
book published by the American

22
00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:34,728
Psychological Association called

23
00:01:30,759 --> 00:01:38,930
transcendent mind rethinking the science

24
00:01:34,728 --> 00:01:41,868
of consciousness this interview is being

25
00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:47,890
conducted over the Internet so now I'm

26
00:01:41,868 --> 00:01:50,899
going to switch over to the Skype video

27
00:01:47,890 --> 00:01:54,649
welcome iman's it's a pleasure to be

28
00:01:50,899 --> 00:01:56,539
with you I want to congratulate you will

29
00:01:54,649 --> 00:02:00,349
once again on getting the American

30
00:01:56,539 --> 00:02:02,359
Psychological Association to publish the

31
00:02:00,349 --> 00:02:05,178
book you co-authored with Julia Moss

32
00:02:02,358 --> 00:02:07,578
frige transcendent mind and and for me

33
00:02:05,179 --> 00:02:10,180
the highlight of that book really is

34
00:02:07,578 --> 00:02:11,989
your flicker filter model of

35
00:02:10,180 --> 00:02:14,360
consciousness so I know we're going to

36
00:02:11,990 --> 00:02:18,800
be focusing in on that but it takes a

37
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,420
while to sort of create the context for

38
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,569
it but perhaps you could just summarize

39
00:02:20,419 --> 00:02:26,108
the theory and

40
00:02:22,568 --> 00:02:27,268
few words and them will dance around it

41
00:02:26,109 --> 00:02:30,340
so to speak

42
00:02:27,269 --> 00:02:32,680
sure well thanks Jeffrey I really

43
00:02:30,340 --> 00:02:36,218
appreciate you interviewing me I've

44
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:39,819
always really liked your work and I

45
00:02:36,218 --> 00:02:43,090
think it's a real service that you that

46
00:02:39,818 --> 00:02:45,369
you do for the consciousness community

47
00:02:43,090 --> 00:02:46,658
to be able to do these interviews and to

48
00:02:45,370 --> 00:02:48,099
make them available to people so that

49
00:02:46,658 --> 00:02:51,759
people can actually know what it is that

50
00:02:48,098 --> 00:02:53,108
we do so I think that that's a real

51
00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:55,810
tribute to you that you've been able to

52
00:02:53,109 --> 00:02:58,329
do this for all these years and I have

53
00:02:55,810 --> 00:02:59,979
used your the original thinking aloud

54
00:02:58,329 --> 00:03:04,269
series for example I've used in my

55
00:02:59,979 --> 00:03:06,638
classrooms as well so so it's it's good

56
00:03:04,269 --> 00:03:08,709
to be here well thank you it's a real

57
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,959
pleasure to be with you as well

58
00:03:08,709 --> 00:03:13,799
naturally I've been aware of your work

59
00:03:10,959 --> 00:03:16,900
for a long time and you've been teaching

60
00:03:13,799 --> 00:03:20,739
consciousness now for over thirty years

61
00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:23,169
so you're really one of the important

62
00:03:20,739 --> 00:03:25,989
pioneers in the field and and I do think

63
00:03:23,169 --> 00:03:31,389
your book transcendent mind is a real

64
00:03:25,989 --> 00:03:35,259
landmark well we we hope so I mean we

65
00:03:31,389 --> 00:03:44,739
were trying to sort of put down an

66
00:03:35,258 --> 00:03:46,750
anchor or to create kind of I don't know

67
00:03:44,739 --> 00:03:48,280
what other word would work as well as

68
00:03:46,750 --> 00:03:51,128
anchor like please you put down an

69
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,239
anchor at a particular place so that so

70
00:03:51,128 --> 00:03:54,518
that you've actually made some headway

71
00:03:52,239 --> 00:03:57,789
mm-hmm yes otherwise it's just they're

72
00:03:54,519 --> 00:04:00,400
always sort of starting from zero right

73
00:03:57,789 --> 00:04:03,489
and and the flicker filter model that

74
00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,919
we'll be talking about really yeah is

75
00:04:03,489 --> 00:04:09,188
something of an anchor in that regard

76
00:04:05,919 --> 00:04:12,209
because it it offers researchers a whole

77
00:04:09,188 --> 00:04:19,089
new way of looking at consciousness I

78
00:04:12,209 --> 00:04:20,468
think first of all it's not really that

79
00:04:19,089 --> 00:04:24,038
unique if you look at what other people

80
00:04:20,468 --> 00:04:27,718
have done it's it's sort of another

81
00:04:24,038 --> 00:04:31,180
variation on a theme that's been arising

82
00:04:27,718 --> 00:04:33,360
frequently I think in the last 100 years

83
00:04:31,180 --> 00:04:33,360
or so

84
00:04:33,778 --> 00:04:38,069
so basically just

85
00:04:35,699 --> 00:04:40,469
summarize the model if you're going to

86
00:04:38,069 --> 00:04:42,870
move away from materialism then the

87
00:04:40,470 --> 00:04:44,250
question Rises what how are we going to

88
00:04:42,870 --> 00:04:46,079
explain things like what kind of

89
00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:49,170
explanatory schemes what we have for

90
00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:50,490
that and I think that's been one of the

91
00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:52,110
charges it's been made well there aren't

92
00:04:50,490 --> 00:04:54,090
any there aren't any therefore you know

93
00:04:52,110 --> 00:04:55,350
you've got nothing there just you have

94
00:04:54,089 --> 00:04:58,019
to stick with materials because nothing

95
00:04:55,350 --> 00:05:00,629
no there are no alternatives yeah almost

96
00:04:58,019 --> 00:05:02,819
by definition I think from the

97
00:05:00,629 --> 00:05:06,420
materialist point of view if it's not

98
00:05:02,819 --> 00:05:08,250
material then it's not science well yeah

99
00:05:06,420 --> 00:05:10,140
that's a conflation of two completely

100
00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:12,240
different things materialism is a theory

101
00:05:10,139 --> 00:05:14,969
and science is a way of acquiring

102
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:19,500
knowledge so it's fact of science that

103
00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:22,760
is undermine materialism yeah so but it

104
00:05:19,500 --> 00:05:25,139
basically put it out of commission so

105
00:05:22,759 --> 00:05:29,159
there are two ingredients in the flicker

106
00:05:25,139 --> 00:05:34,379
filter theory the first of those is the

107
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:38,280
notion of the flicker and this isn't

108
00:05:34,379 --> 00:05:40,409
really you know a novel idea people have

109
00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,019
proposed this idea in the past but more

110
00:05:40,410 --> 00:05:44,910
or less jokingly though that maybe the

111
00:05:43,019 --> 00:05:48,659
universe turns itself on and off all the

112
00:05:44,910 --> 00:05:51,150
time but when Julie and I started

113
00:05:48,660 --> 00:05:57,110
looking carefully at Julian Barr Bohr's

114
00:05:51,149 --> 00:06:02,069
theory of time he has a theory whereby

115
00:05:57,110 --> 00:06:04,590
time consists of sequences of mouse and

116
00:06:02,069 --> 00:06:08,790
those now sit in a big pile somewhere

117
00:06:04,589 --> 00:06:11,369
and then they come down out of that pile

118
00:06:08,790 --> 00:06:14,430
and some kind of order that's determined

119
00:06:11,370 --> 00:06:20,069
by some sort of probability density

120
00:06:14,430 --> 00:06:22,290
function or whatever and so that kind of

121
00:06:20,069 --> 00:06:26,969
went along with ideas that I already had

122
00:06:22,290 --> 00:06:32,600
from looking at the measurement problem

123
00:06:26,970 --> 00:06:32,600
in quantum mechanics and there are

124
00:06:32,629 --> 00:06:37,649
steers in quantum mechanics basically

125
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,629
that say that if you if you continues

126
00:06:37,649 --> 00:06:42,000
the observer system it won't change so

127
00:06:39,629 --> 00:06:45,029
that means that you have to release your

128
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,350
observation in effect then the question

129
00:06:45,029 --> 00:06:48,299
is well how does that translate over to

130
00:06:46,350 --> 00:06:49,210
ordinary life we're not talking here

131
00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:52,418
about baking

132
00:06:49,209 --> 00:06:53,739
formal experimental observations and

133
00:06:52,418 --> 00:06:56,310
physics we're talking about everyday

134
00:06:53,740 --> 00:06:58,840
life and so it seemed to me that that

135
00:06:56,310 --> 00:07:01,180
sort of to cut a long story short that

136
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,829
the way that that could happen is if the

137
00:07:01,180 --> 00:07:07,150
universe itself kept turning on and on

138
00:07:02,829 --> 00:07:10,060
and and so then you've got this idea of

139
00:07:07,149 --> 00:07:12,370
these successions of now is that sort of

140
00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:14,918
show up and disappear show up and

141
00:07:12,370 --> 00:07:18,430
disappear it seems as if you're applying

142
00:07:14,918 --> 00:07:20,740
the principle of the quantum to time

143
00:07:18,430 --> 00:07:24,939
you're talking about in effect Quantum's

144
00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:27,550
of time yes and there is a there is

145
00:07:24,939 --> 00:07:30,848
something called plunk time and within

146
00:07:27,550 --> 00:07:33,879
the time span of plunk time time cannot

147
00:07:30,848 --> 00:07:35,649
be distinguished and and so in why don't

148
00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:37,478
one of my papers I propose the idea that

149
00:07:35,649 --> 00:07:40,120
maybe the universe turns itself on and

150
00:07:37,478 --> 00:07:42,098
off once for long time mm-hmm so in

151
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,228
other words that it is quantized time is

152
00:07:42,098 --> 00:07:51,779
quantized and then there's sort of a

153
00:07:44,228 --> 00:07:54,370
space in between the Quantum's well yeah

154
00:07:51,779 --> 00:07:57,158
who knows what that means right yeah

155
00:07:54,370 --> 00:07:59,250
because once you get away from the idea

156
00:07:57,158 --> 00:08:03,069
of sort of this linearly ordered time

157
00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:08,199
though as we experience it both clock

158
00:08:03,069 --> 00:08:10,478
time and subjective time then then it

159
00:08:08,199 --> 00:08:14,098
then you had that basically everything

160
00:08:10,478 --> 00:08:16,538
is up for grabs again mm-hmm and then

161
00:08:14,098 --> 00:08:19,418
you have to try to figure it all out and

162
00:08:16,538 --> 00:08:21,370
that's challenging and it's interesting

163
00:08:19,418 --> 00:08:24,609
and Julie and I had a lot of fun with it

164
00:08:21,370 --> 00:08:27,250
but essentially the flicker part of the

165
00:08:24,610 --> 00:08:31,629
flicker filter model is is the idea that

166
00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:35,200
the universe recreates itself instant by

167
00:08:31,629 --> 00:08:39,939
instant right that's that's exactly it

168
00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:41,770
mm-hmm and notice notice one of the

169
00:08:39,940 --> 00:08:43,510
first consequences why should it

170
00:08:41,769 --> 00:08:45,519
recreate itself the way it already was

171
00:08:43,509 --> 00:08:48,490
and that's where the theory of meaning

172
00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:50,139
fields comes in that which isn't in the

173
00:08:48,490 --> 00:08:53,320
book by the way I developed those after

174
00:08:50,139 --> 00:08:56,889
writing the book but the idea that there

175
00:08:53,320 --> 00:09:00,790
are these fields that hold the patterns

176
00:08:56,889 --> 00:09:03,289
of what is going to happen and that has

177
00:09:00,789 --> 00:09:05,419
powerful implications because

178
00:09:03,289 --> 00:09:07,819
if you start thinking that we can switch

179
00:09:05,419 --> 00:09:10,579
between meeting fields then that means

180
00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:15,200
that you can switch what happens in

181
00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:18,770
physical reality from now to now mm-hmm

182
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:23,690
and so let's talk about for the filter

183
00:09:18,769 --> 00:09:27,049
aspect of the flicker filter model the

184
00:09:23,690 --> 00:09:31,310
filter is perhaps better known in the

185
00:09:27,049 --> 00:09:35,019
literature in that the idea is very

186
00:09:31,309 --> 00:09:38,479
simple that maybe the brain somehow is

187
00:09:35,019 --> 00:09:41,269
not the source of consciousness but

188
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:45,110
maybe all it's doing is it's a channel

189
00:09:41,269 --> 00:09:48,199
or a relay station or almost like a

190
00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:51,710
block or a filter or some kind of device

191
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:54,470
that attenuates and constricts and

192
00:09:51,710 --> 00:09:58,310
restricts consciousness itself mm-hmm

193
00:09:54,470 --> 00:10:01,399
and that consciousness is not primarily

194
00:09:58,309 --> 00:10:03,709
or fundamentally of the brain it works

195
00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:05,689
through the brain but that's not where

196
00:10:03,710 --> 00:10:09,950
it comes from and that's not its primary

197
00:10:05,690 --> 00:10:12,350
identity so the notion now is that there

198
00:10:09,950 --> 00:10:14,690
is some kind of deep consciousness or

199
00:10:12,350 --> 00:10:20,029
some kind of pre physical substrate or

200
00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:22,460
some kind of realm in which ordinary

201
00:10:20,029 --> 00:10:24,980
time does not function ordinary space

202
00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:26,720
does not function the ordinary rules of

203
00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:29,539
physics as we understand and don't

204
00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:35,149
function and that pre physical substrate

205
00:10:29,539 --> 00:10:40,129
is the sort of the source for where the

206
00:10:35,149 --> 00:10:41,929
nouse come from and and the sort of all

207
00:10:40,129 --> 00:10:45,110
the filtering that goes on in bringing

208
00:10:41,929 --> 00:10:47,209
whatever is in that deep space into

209
00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:52,149
physical manifestation mm-hmm

210
00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:55,610
well okay so now we we've summarized the

211
00:10:52,149 --> 00:10:59,360
flicker filter model but I think it's

212
00:10:55,610 --> 00:11:01,310
important to review for the benefit of

213
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,379
our viewers some of the problems that

214
00:11:01,309 --> 00:11:06,829
you've identified with the whole notion

215
00:11:03,379 --> 00:11:08,779
of either materialism or or physicalism

216
00:11:06,830 --> 00:11:10,280
and in in your book you do a very

217
00:11:08,779 --> 00:11:11,949
elegant job of that

218
00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:14,769
starting with

219
00:11:11,950 --> 00:11:21,129
the whole history of the idea of

220
00:11:14,769 --> 00:11:23,980
materialism well thank you Jeffrey I

221
00:11:21,129 --> 00:11:29,230
appreciate that you feel that it was it

222
00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:34,269
was a convincing argument the I've had a

223
00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:36,519
lot of practice at it I have years ago

224
00:11:34,269 --> 00:11:37,839
they're published the philosophy paper

225
00:11:36,519 --> 00:11:39,519
some fundamental problems with a

226
00:11:37,839 --> 00:11:43,120
materialist interpretation of reality so

227
00:11:39,519 --> 00:11:45,850
I've been at this for a long time and

228
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,980
have carefully reviewed all of the

229
00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:50,290
arguments for and against materialism

230
00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:51,970
and have had these arguments with

231
00:11:50,289 --> 00:11:55,000
materialists of various sorts for

232
00:11:51,970 --> 00:11:58,139
decades so I understand the arguments

233
00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:01,839
very well moving in both directions

234
00:11:58,139 --> 00:12:04,389
which I think allows me to sort of try

235
00:12:01,839 --> 00:12:07,480
to more succinctly summarize everything

236
00:12:04,389 --> 00:12:10,419
and then Giulio was relentless and

237
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:14,829
forcing me to to clarify everything as

238
00:12:10,419 --> 00:12:17,889
well so I mean that was it was very very

239
00:12:14,828 --> 00:12:20,979
important in terms of moving forward

240
00:12:17,889 --> 00:12:23,919
some kind of lucid sort of analysis of

241
00:12:20,980 --> 00:12:27,759
materialism yeah you you begin by

242
00:12:23,919 --> 00:12:29,250
talking about how at one time in history

243
00:12:27,759 --> 00:12:33,789
and I think many people today still

244
00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:36,669
imagined materialism sort of used using

245
00:12:33,789 --> 00:12:38,289
the metaphor of billiard balls that and

246
00:12:36,669 --> 00:12:41,828
a lot of that molecules are like

247
00:12:38,289 --> 00:12:44,588
billiard balls that was the that was

248
00:12:41,828 --> 00:12:46,208
explicitly a model that was developed

249
00:12:44,589 --> 00:12:49,329
and historically in the Western

250
00:12:46,208 --> 00:12:51,789
intellectual tradition and so not only

251
00:12:49,328 --> 00:12:55,328
do we carry that forward in the Western

252
00:12:51,789 --> 00:12:57,250
intellectual tradition but as we know

253
00:12:55,328 --> 00:12:59,739
you know as psychologists we realize

254
00:12:57,250 --> 00:13:01,269
that people use scheme ADIF or

255
00:12:59,740 --> 00:13:04,509
organizing the way in which they

256
00:13:01,269 --> 00:13:06,190
understand reality so you know when we

257
00:13:04,509 --> 00:13:08,110
think bird we don't think you know the

258
00:13:06,190 --> 00:13:10,209
genetic makeup of birds we just have a

259
00:13:08,110 --> 00:13:12,278
prototype of a Robin in our heads and

260
00:13:10,208 --> 00:13:13,869
then we just compare what comes along to

261
00:13:12,278 --> 00:13:16,899
the Robin and go like well that's not a

262
00:13:13,870 --> 00:13:18,519
bird it doesn't look like a Robin so

263
00:13:16,899 --> 00:13:19,870
that's how we reason right we use all

264
00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:22,209
these reasoning heuristics we don't

265
00:13:19,870 --> 00:13:24,339
actually think things through ordinarily

266
00:13:22,208 --> 00:13:25,299
I mean you know you need philosophers

267
00:13:24,339 --> 00:13:27,010
you know

268
00:13:25,299 --> 00:13:28,208
do that they sit down and think things

269
00:13:27,009 --> 00:13:29,289
through that nobody can understand what

270
00:13:28,208 --> 00:13:31,899
they said because it becomes so

271
00:13:29,289 --> 00:13:33,819
complicated yeah so I think one of the

272
00:13:31,899 --> 00:13:35,679
things that happens and there's almost

273
00:13:33,820 --> 00:13:38,470
no research on this one of my thesis

274
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,359
students looked at it a little bit is

275
00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:43,480
that we tend to use a billiard ball

276
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:45,459
schema for organizing reality so when we

277
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,870
think about something is that real we we

278
00:13:45,458 --> 00:13:48,458
think well everything is like billiard

279
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:50,470
balls sort of banging into one another

280
00:13:48,458 --> 00:13:51,819
and kind of moving backward and forward

281
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:54,430
in time and some kind of deterministic

282
00:13:51,820 --> 00:14:00,129
way and if it doesn't fit that then we

283
00:13:54,429 --> 00:14:01,419
go obviously that can't happen so you

284
00:14:00,129 --> 00:14:03,370
know you say well the survival

285
00:14:01,419 --> 00:14:04,990
hypothesis is it possible for for there

286
00:14:03,370 --> 00:14:07,600
to be the continuation of consciousness

287
00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:08,950
after death physical death well that's

288
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,320
that's an open question that's a

289
00:14:08,950 --> 00:14:12,850
scientific question you know that you

290
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,250
say well what methodology are we going

291
00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:17,019
to use for answering that question but

292
00:14:15,250 --> 00:14:18,429
if you've already got this scheme added

293
00:14:17,019 --> 00:14:19,450
that you know everything is pumping

294
00:14:18,429 --> 00:14:21,009
billiard balls you go we'll wait a

295
00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:23,350
minute the billiard balls start bumping

296
00:14:21,009 --> 00:14:24,789
there's nothing happening yeah so you

297
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:26,680
don't even think that there's any point

298
00:14:24,789 --> 00:14:28,778
in investigating that because you're

299
00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:32,289
your schema doesn't allow about your

300
00:14:28,778 --> 00:14:33,639
schema already precludes the idea that

301
00:14:32,289 --> 00:14:35,740
consciousness could survive death

302
00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:42,159
because there's just bumping billiard

303
00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:44,589
balls and there's nothing there and and

304
00:14:42,159 --> 00:14:46,899
the irony is of course we know today in

305
00:14:44,589 --> 00:14:49,510
physics that fundamental particles are

306
00:14:46,899 --> 00:14:51,659
nothing like billiard balls oh goodness

307
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:54,250
no we have no idea what they are

308
00:14:51,659 --> 00:14:56,078
that's what are the famous quotations

309
00:14:54,250 --> 00:14:58,389
for richard fineman like if you think

310
00:14:56,078 --> 00:15:00,159
that you're going to use your ideas

311
00:14:58,389 --> 00:15:05,139
about how reality works at this level

312
00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:07,449
for understanding quantum phenomena then

313
00:15:05,139 --> 00:15:09,970
you know you are you're simply gonna

314
00:15:07,450 --> 00:15:12,459
miss it you're going to miss it people

315
00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:15,550
today and I've interviewed some have

316
00:15:12,458 --> 00:15:19,649
have often said well I'm no longer a

317
00:15:15,549 --> 00:15:22,990
materialist I'm a physicalist as if that

318
00:15:19,649 --> 00:15:25,958
provides a more sophisticated response

319
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:28,659
and you really torn that argument into

320
00:15:25,958 --> 00:15:31,268
shreds yeah there's nothing there

321
00:15:28,659 --> 00:15:32,948
I mean what what does that mean yeah

322
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:36,698
like I'm physical what does that mean

323
00:15:32,948 --> 00:15:37,599
even like you know one one version of

324
00:15:36,698 --> 00:15:38,659
that whoo oh it means whatever

325
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,579
physicists say

326
00:15:38,659 --> 00:15:42,318
reality is like but they obviously

327
00:15:40,578 --> 00:15:43,818
haven't talked to very many physicists

328
00:15:42,318 --> 00:15:46,370
because when you go in the physics

329
00:15:43,818 --> 00:15:47,958
community the physicists you do

330
00:15:46,370 --> 00:15:51,649
theoretical physics don't agree with one

331
00:15:47,958 --> 00:15:53,809
another mm-hmm so what what kind of

332
00:15:51,649 --> 00:15:56,269
version of reality is that what does

333
00:15:53,809 --> 00:15:58,549
that mean then mm hm and so usually what

334
00:15:56,269 --> 00:16:00,169
happens is that people default back to

335
00:15:58,549 --> 00:16:01,849
their scheme added like they think Oh

336
00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:03,438
physicists must think that the universe

337
00:16:01,850 --> 00:16:04,730
is like bumping billiard balls and

338
00:16:03,438 --> 00:16:07,039
therefore I'm gonna say that the

339
00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:08,539
universe is physical in nature but of

340
00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:13,519
course the physicists don't think that

341
00:16:08,539 --> 00:16:15,318
and so and and trying to track what they

342
00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:17,089
think and where they're going with it I

343
00:16:15,318 --> 00:16:20,000
mean the other thing which this isn't

344
00:16:17,089 --> 00:16:23,660
even I mean this is it's funny but it

345
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:26,778
also happens regularly it that when you

346
00:16:23,659 --> 00:16:29,328
ask a theoretical physicist somebody who

347
00:16:26,778 --> 00:16:31,519
does quantum field theory for example um

348
00:16:29,328 --> 00:16:33,948
so what does this mean like what does

349
00:16:31,519 --> 00:16:36,560
this tell us about the universe and they

350
00:16:33,948 --> 00:16:38,088
they allow don't oh no no I don't I

351
00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:41,149
don't say anything about that I don't

352
00:16:38,089 --> 00:16:44,630
know anything about that shut up and

353
00:16:41,149 --> 00:16:47,600
calculate and that's the that's

354
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:50,809
basically the attitude you can either do

355
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:52,459
the mathematics which is what you do and

356
00:16:50,809 --> 00:16:54,588
that's your that's your livelihood you

357
00:16:52,458 --> 00:16:57,229
do the mathematics and you just go along

358
00:16:54,589 --> 00:16:58,519
with it or you try to think about it if

359
00:16:57,230 --> 00:16:59,509
you think about it most people to think

360
00:16:58,519 --> 00:17:01,578
about it don't understand the

361
00:16:59,509 --> 00:17:02,899
mathematics and so they're thinking

362
00:17:01,578 --> 00:17:03,919
about it but how are you gonna think

363
00:17:02,899 --> 00:17:06,890
about it you're gonna think about it

364
00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:08,779
using analogies but did the waves of

365
00:17:06,890 --> 00:17:12,799
particles those analogies all of those

366
00:17:08,779 --> 00:17:14,298
now analogies fail and so so what is it

367
00:17:12,798 --> 00:17:17,900
we don't know it's mysterious it's

368
00:17:14,298 --> 00:17:20,558
something really weird on top of that

369
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:23,480
you have a number of physicists who are

370
00:17:20,558 --> 00:17:25,609
starting with people like Max Planck one

371
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,038
of the founders of quantum mechanics who

372
00:17:25,609 --> 00:17:31,668
suggested that consciousness itself is

373
00:17:28,038 --> 00:17:33,048
fundamental well exactly so it's just a

374
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:35,059
course of which physicist you're gonna

375
00:17:33,048 --> 00:17:36,379
listen to and you listen to the right

376
00:17:35,058 --> 00:17:37,908
ones and they'll tell you that there's

377
00:17:36,380 --> 00:17:40,850
nothing down there that it's all mine

378
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:43,840
yeah so you've argued actually that

379
00:17:40,849 --> 00:17:48,259
physicalism could be another way of

380
00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:50,928
sneaking mentalism or idealism into the

381
00:17:48,259 --> 00:17:52,029
metaphysical pic exactly exactly without

382
00:17:50,929 --> 00:17:53,890
knowing it so

383
00:17:52,029 --> 00:17:57,660
just this is kind of fun watching people

384
00:17:53,890 --> 00:18:00,880
do that it's the other thing that you

385
00:17:57,660 --> 00:18:03,250
address after having sort of shredded

386
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,950
the whole edifice of materialism or

387
00:18:03,250 --> 00:18:09,190
physicalism you you begin to look at

388
00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:12,000
time itself and our understanding of

389
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:14,019
time when Julie and I first got together

390
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,269
like she has a background in doing

391
00:18:14,019 --> 00:18:18,220
research on time and I had been thinking

392
00:18:16,269 --> 00:18:19,839
about time for years that I really

393
00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:21,100
needed to sit down and think about it I

394
00:18:19,839 --> 00:18:23,649
hadn't thought about it I thought about

395
00:18:21,099 --> 00:18:25,449
thinking about it and so we decided to

396
00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:27,220
write a paper about time and that became

397
00:18:25,450 --> 00:18:30,309
chapter 3 of the book then we decided ok

398
00:18:27,220 --> 00:18:35,500
let's just do a whole book then but but

399
00:18:30,309 --> 00:18:38,220
that was the that was I feel that in the

400
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:41,710
whole book in a way that is really our

401
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:44,110
sort of scholarly contribution there is

402
00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:47,549
in that particular chapter and so what

403
00:18:44,109 --> 00:18:50,289
we did was we looked at time in physics

404
00:18:47,549 --> 00:18:53,500
both in relativity theory quantum and

405
00:18:50,289 --> 00:18:56,049
quantum theories we looked at the

406
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:59,079
neuroscience of time we looked at the

407
00:18:56,049 --> 00:19:03,339
phenomenology of time we looked at all

408
00:18:59,079 --> 00:19:05,500
the anomalous phenomena around time the

409
00:19:03,339 --> 00:19:11,819
presentiments studies those kinds of

410
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:16,240
things precognitive dreams we looked at

411
00:19:11,819 --> 00:19:20,919
time in altered states time under the

412
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:23,440
influence of psychedelic drugs time and

413
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:27,490
time as its experienced by people who've

414
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:30,549
had a near-death experience and one of

415
00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:32,279
the so just to give you an example the

416
00:19:30,549 --> 00:19:34,210
kind of thing that we're talking about

417
00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:38,019
sometimes after somebody's had a

418
00:19:34,210 --> 00:19:40,000
near-death experience they will be

419
00:19:38,019 --> 00:19:41,680
sitting somewhere just minding their own

420
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,420
business doing something and one of my

421
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,910
former students actually told me of this

422
00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:48,370
experience as well so it's it's in the

423
00:19:45,910 --> 00:19:50,250
literature and I've also heard firsthand

424
00:19:48,369 --> 00:19:52,779
or secondhand or whatever that would be

425
00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:54,789
from my students of having had this

426
00:19:52,779 --> 00:19:56,859
experience so you're sitting somewhere

427
00:19:54,789 --> 00:20:02,409
minding your own business doing whatever

428
00:19:56,859 --> 00:20:04,629
is you're doing with other people and at

429
00:20:02,410 --> 00:20:06,140
the same time you're now living your

430
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:09,100
life forward

431
00:20:06,140 --> 00:20:11,750
and you're living your life forward for

432
00:20:09,099 --> 00:20:14,659
two three four months into the future

433
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:16,308
and you're still sitting there talking

434
00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:18,040
to people and all of this maybe takes

435
00:20:16,308 --> 00:20:20,660
about ten minutes of your time

436
00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:24,649
and then you go whoa that was crazy what

437
00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:26,630
was that and then when you get further

438
00:20:24,650 --> 00:20:28,519
on in your life a couple of months later

439
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:30,679
this whole scenario that you already

440
00:20:28,519 --> 00:20:33,410
lived out starts up and you live it out

441
00:20:30,679 --> 00:20:37,460
mm-hmm that is completely crazy I mean

442
00:20:33,410 --> 00:20:41,058
that is that does not fit a you know

443
00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:45,429
linear beads on a string version of time

444
00:20:41,058 --> 00:20:49,009
in any in any kind of sense

445
00:20:45,429 --> 00:20:50,840
so taking into account those types of

446
00:20:49,009 --> 00:20:52,640
anomalous experiences taking into

447
00:20:50,839 --> 00:20:54,259
account what happens during life reviews

448
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,880
and your death experiences as well as

449
00:20:54,259 --> 00:20:58,429
all the neuroscience the the

450
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,049
phenomenology that what people in

451
00:20:58,429 --> 00:21:04,790
physics say and so on so that's how we

452
00:21:00,048 --> 00:21:07,759
sort of sort of turned everything over

453
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:11,019
and and and decided that maybe Julian

454
00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:13,700
Barbour had the kind of the the closest

455
00:21:11,019 --> 00:21:14,720
closest sense of what time might be like

456
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:16,850
mm-hmm

457
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,400
it is daylight this notion that there is

458
00:21:16,849 --> 00:21:22,189
only the present there are only now

459
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:25,970
these mouths are organized in some kind

460
00:21:22,190 --> 00:21:27,350
of way at some deep level and and then

461
00:21:25,970 --> 00:21:29,779
it's a question of how does that

462
00:21:27,349 --> 00:21:32,119
organization occur and you know what are

463
00:21:29,779 --> 00:21:34,910
the opportunities for manipulating it

464
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:37,039
it's I think it's useful to point out

465
00:21:34,910 --> 00:21:40,090
that what you've done here and in a book

466
00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:43,399
published by the American Psychological

467
00:21:40,089 --> 00:21:47,079
Association is you're introducing a wide

468
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:50,090
range of empirical studies that were

469
00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:52,909
pretty much considered taboo in the

470
00:21:50,089 --> 00:21:56,869
psychological community and and you've

471
00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:59,690
argued that the this crumbling edifice

472
00:21:56,869 --> 00:22:04,149
of materialism is the reason why that

473
00:21:59,690 --> 00:22:04,150
taboo exists and it ought not to

474
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:11,350
precisely Jeffrey when you look at the

475
00:22:07,028 --> 00:22:14,739
history of psychology in the late 19th

476
00:22:11,349 --> 00:22:17,168
century psychology included all of these

477
00:22:14,739 --> 00:22:18,729
interesting aspects I mean they talked

478
00:22:17,169 --> 00:22:20,440
about hypnosis they talked about

479
00:22:18,729 --> 00:22:22,749
multiple personalities they talked about

480
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,548
mediumship they talked about the

481
00:22:22,749 --> 00:22:25,899
survival of consciousness after death

482
00:22:24,548 --> 00:22:29,979
they were interested in everything

483
00:22:25,898 --> 00:22:33,248
across the board and in the early 1900's

484
00:22:29,979 --> 00:22:35,200
all of the anomalous phenomena got

485
00:22:33,249 --> 00:22:38,108
chopped out of psychology and it was

486
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:41,259
just left kind of like this this sort of

487
00:22:38,108 --> 00:22:44,079
naked sort of ratty little skeleton and

488
00:22:41,259 --> 00:22:47,558
that that was that was it and I think

489
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:51,460
that what Julie and I are doing really

490
00:22:47,558 --> 00:22:52,989
is nothing other than re-establishing

491
00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:55,389
what psychology was in the first place

492
00:22:52,989 --> 00:22:56,798
that there is a range of phenomena that

493
00:22:55,388 --> 00:23:00,308
are of interest when you look at the

494
00:22:56,798 --> 00:23:03,729
human psyche and this is the subject

495
00:23:00,308 --> 00:23:05,979
matter for psychologists and there is a

496
00:23:03,729 --> 00:23:08,649
great deal of material now about it

497
00:23:05,979 --> 00:23:09,970
anomalous and NOT anomalous and that we

498
00:23:08,648 --> 00:23:12,368
should look at all of it and consider

499
00:23:09,970 --> 00:23:14,288
all of it when we try to understand the

500
00:23:12,368 --> 00:23:18,689
psyche and understand what consciousness

501
00:23:14,288 --> 00:23:23,190
is yeah it seems as if psychologists are

502
00:23:18,690 --> 00:23:26,759
in effect handicapping themselves by

503
00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:30,038
studiously ignoring a vast body of data

504
00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:33,608
with direct relevance to the subject

505
00:23:30,038 --> 00:23:39,158
that they purport to study exactly just

506
00:23:33,608 --> 00:23:41,528
exactly yeah Wow well I think I think

507
00:23:39,159 --> 00:23:44,889
you've and Julia have done a fabulous

508
00:23:41,528 --> 00:23:48,898
job of reviewing all of that literature

509
00:23:44,888 --> 00:23:52,138
and in particular precognition because

510
00:23:48,898 --> 00:23:54,608
it strikes right at the very heart of

511
00:23:52,138 --> 00:23:57,969
important questions relating to the

512
00:23:54,608 --> 00:24:03,460
nature of time the nature of causality

513
00:23:57,970 --> 00:24:09,308
the nature of free will yes definitely

514
00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:10,960
and and this is where the sort of where

515
00:24:09,308 --> 00:24:13,598
we get to the flicker filter theory

516
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,848
because you say okay well we can explain

517
00:24:13,598 --> 00:24:17,649
how you have okay how you can have

518
00:24:15,848 --> 00:24:20,409
precognition but we can also show

519
00:24:17,650 --> 00:24:22,030
you how you can then change reality so

520
00:24:20,410 --> 00:24:23,769
that what you just saw is going to

521
00:24:22,029 --> 00:24:25,990
happen isn't going to happen anymore

522
00:24:23,769 --> 00:24:29,740
so you're in this sort of very odd

523
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:35,259
ironic situation work in my case for

524
00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:36,789
example I as a PhD student I started to

525
00:24:35,259 --> 00:24:38,920
establish the fact that some of my

526
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:41,349
dreams were precognitive and it takes a

527
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,120
long time I mean you have to you know

528
00:24:41,349 --> 00:24:44,709
you write the dream down you say this is

529
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,449
what the dream says this is what it

530
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:48,579
predicts will happen and then you check

531
00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:52,210
did it happen or did it not happen and

532
00:24:48,579 --> 00:24:53,649
you know they can take 10 15 20 years to

533
00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:57,160
say okay I think this is actually

534
00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:58,960
working then when you get that far you

535
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,240
go okay but I don't like that outcome

536
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,549
like I really don't want that so then

537
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,009
you say okay so how can I change it so

538
00:25:03,549 --> 00:25:07,419
then you find ways to change it and so

539
00:25:06,009 --> 00:25:09,879
now it's like you're no longer

540
00:25:07,420 --> 00:25:13,090
demonstrating precognition anymore

541
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,230
because because you've anticipated what

542
00:25:13,089 --> 00:25:15,909
is going to happen and now you've

543
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:17,589
decided you don't want it and you change

544
00:25:15,910 --> 00:25:20,140
it and so what happens in reality is not

545
00:25:17,589 --> 00:25:24,939
what you saw in the first place and so

546
00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:28,750
ironically ironically you know you're

547
00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:30,279
using precognition in order to in some

548
00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:34,839
sense I guess in a narrow sense

549
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:40,329
invalidated right it raises all kinds of

550
00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:42,189
potential logical paradoxes yes yes I

551
00:25:40,329 --> 00:25:47,609
mean the way we one way to think about

552
00:25:42,190 --> 00:25:50,529
it one of the things that happened with

553
00:25:47,609 --> 00:25:52,509
the special theory of relativity was the

554
00:25:50,529 --> 00:25:54,369
spatialization of time the time was

555
00:25:52,509 --> 00:25:56,920
added for as a fourth dimension along

556
00:25:54,369 --> 00:25:58,479
with the spatial dimensions if you do

557
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,130
that and you regard the universe is

558
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,680
being deterministic then you get a block

559
00:26:00,130 --> 00:26:03,910
universe so basically everything that

560
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,810
ever happened anything that ever will

561
00:26:03,910 --> 00:26:10,420
happen is already already said and done

562
00:26:07,809 --> 00:26:12,809
and in all it's all like sits in a big

563
00:26:10,420 --> 00:26:17,080
block mm-hmm so it's a block universe

564
00:26:12,809 --> 00:26:19,899
but one but a way to sort of free

565
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:22,029
yourself from the determinism of that is

566
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:25,720
to say well what if we switch between

567
00:26:22,029 --> 00:26:27,509
block universes so we're switching out

568
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,039
of that universe in which this

569
00:26:27,509 --> 00:26:31,148
precognitive dream showed me that you

570
00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:34,928
know I was going to have a car

571
00:26:31,148 --> 00:26:38,408
to whatever and move into a universe

572
00:26:34,929 --> 00:26:41,499
word that's not happening anymore and so

573
00:26:38,409 --> 00:26:45,609
so the idea here is that you can sort of

574
00:26:41,499 --> 00:26:47,649
have these so outdated notions of the

575
00:26:45,608 --> 00:26:49,838
way in which you think time works in

576
00:26:47,648 --> 00:26:52,508
these block universe and use them to

577
00:26:49,838 --> 00:26:53,710
think in creative ways that maybe what

578
00:26:52,509 --> 00:26:56,249
you're doing is you're actually moving

579
00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:58,298
between these maybe you're maybe you're

580
00:26:56,249 --> 00:27:02,829
somehow you have the ability to

581
00:26:58,298 --> 00:27:06,069
negotiate reality well and the the

582
00:27:02,829 --> 00:27:09,278
flicker filter model allows not only for

583
00:27:06,069 --> 00:27:11,259
precognition but as you point out in

584
00:27:09,278 --> 00:27:14,460
your book it also allows for the

585
00:27:11,259 --> 00:27:19,088
possibility of psychokinesis and even

586
00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:22,659
survival after death oh yeah yeah I mean

587
00:27:19,088 --> 00:27:24,190
they I mean once you're on the other

588
00:27:22,659 --> 00:27:26,049
side of the filter consciousness

589
00:27:24,190 --> 00:27:28,899
consciousness sits on the other side of

590
00:27:26,048 --> 00:27:31,450
the filter ultimately so and you are

591
00:27:28,898 --> 00:27:33,608
simply an extrusion of that and by

592
00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:36,308
consciousness here here you I think you

593
00:27:33,608 --> 00:27:40,418
mean a larger consciousness than our

594
00:27:36,308 --> 00:27:42,009
normal ego consciousness exactly yeah we

595
00:27:40,419 --> 00:27:43,179
at the beginning of the book would give

596
00:27:42,009 --> 00:27:45,878
four different definitions of

597
00:27:43,179 --> 00:27:52,119
consciousness work we're dealing with

598
00:27:45,878 --> 00:27:53,678
that subjective aspect of that is sort

599
00:27:52,118 --> 00:27:56,618
of the core of our constitutes

600
00:27:53,679 --> 00:27:59,278
experience and you sort of think of that

601
00:27:56,618 --> 00:28:03,218
as being sort of expanded or

602
00:27:59,278 --> 00:28:04,479
universalized somehow and that that is

603
00:28:03,219 --> 00:28:06,820
the kind of consciousness we're talking

604
00:28:04,479 --> 00:28:10,719
about here yeah some kind of and this is

605
00:28:06,819 --> 00:28:13,178
the sort of thing that that people would

606
00:28:10,719 --> 00:28:14,379
tap into during a transcendent state of

607
00:28:13,179 --> 00:28:17,259
consciousness where they feel

608
00:28:14,378 --> 00:28:19,988
timelessness baselessness they feel that

609
00:28:17,259 --> 00:28:22,269
they're they've been liberated from the

610
00:28:19,989 --> 00:28:25,509
usual constraints of reality and they

611
00:28:22,269 --> 00:28:28,569
feel completely expanded and and in some

612
00:28:25,509 --> 00:28:31,598
cases they they literally talk about

613
00:28:28,569 --> 00:28:35,108
being able to pop into time into the

614
00:28:31,598 --> 00:28:36,489
time stream where they choose well not

615
00:28:35,108 --> 00:28:38,468
necessarily maybe where they choose but

616
00:28:36,489 --> 00:28:40,569
they don't necessarily pop into it in a

617
00:28:38,469 --> 00:28:42,548
linear order out of that deep

618
00:28:40,569 --> 00:28:44,009
consciousness and we give some examples

619
00:28:42,548 --> 00:28:46,200
of that in the book

620
00:28:44,009 --> 00:28:49,019
you even of course draw upon a lot of

621
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:53,309
conventional research about subjective

622
00:28:49,019 --> 00:28:56,069
time that this shows that experiences

623
00:28:53,309 --> 00:28:58,859
sometimes appear to take longer or to

624
00:28:56,069 --> 00:29:01,769
take less time than one might measure by

625
00:28:58,859 --> 00:29:05,399
the clock oh yes

626
00:29:01,769 --> 00:29:10,109
time gets stretched stretched twisted

627
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:13,350
turned its it doesn't perfectly match

628
00:29:10,109 --> 00:29:15,299
across modalities one of the other

629
00:29:13,349 --> 00:29:17,579
things that we found very interesting

630
00:29:15,299 --> 00:29:19,799
there's been considerable research

631
00:29:17,579 --> 00:29:22,349
trying to find time in the brain and

632
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:24,629
that has not happened yet we do not know

633
00:29:22,349 --> 00:29:27,089
there is no central time processor in

634
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:32,540
the brain which is kind of interesting

635
00:29:27,089 --> 00:29:35,639
and yet there is temporal finding and so

636
00:29:32,539 --> 00:29:37,109
and this is just another variation of

637
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,970
the binding problem we don't know how

638
00:29:37,109 --> 00:29:41,699
the sensory modalities get found that we

639
00:29:38,970 --> 00:29:43,650
don't know how temporal temporality

640
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:46,410
especially across modalities gets bound

641
00:29:43,650 --> 00:29:48,960
yeah what's up excuse me we better

642
00:29:46,410 --> 00:29:52,050
define for our viewers the binding

643
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,850
problem I know amongst researchers it's

644
00:29:52,049 --> 00:29:56,279
very important but for the lay public

645
00:29:53,849 --> 00:30:02,609
very few people have heard about the

646
00:29:56,279 --> 00:30:07,369
binding problem the wait think about the

647
00:30:02,609 --> 00:30:09,929
way in which the senses process

648
00:30:07,369 --> 00:30:14,059
stimulated impinge on the physical body

649
00:30:09,930 --> 00:30:14,060
so light hits the retina of the eye

650
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:21,450
longitudinal sound waves impact the

651
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:23,610
eardrum you put your hand out and your

652
00:30:21,450 --> 00:30:25,440
touch the keyboard and there are

653
00:30:23,609 --> 00:30:29,609
corpuscles and so on and the fingers

654
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:32,820
that relay information up the spine into

655
00:30:29,609 --> 00:30:35,159
the brain and that's all over the place

656
00:30:32,819 --> 00:30:38,189
I mean this is a bit here a bit there a

657
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,170
little something here a little you know

658
00:30:38,190 --> 00:30:41,730
nonsense going on I mean just think

659
00:30:40,170 --> 00:30:45,870
about the eyeball I mean it's filled

660
00:30:41,730 --> 00:30:47,789
with what this murky fluid you know once

661
00:30:45,869 --> 00:30:48,929
you put light through a murky fluid by

662
00:30:47,789 --> 00:30:50,549
the time has gone through the murky

663
00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:54,120
fluid it's just like all over the place

664
00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:55,710
how do you ever see a vertical line the

665
00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:57,298
only way you see a vertical line is

666
00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:59,220
because the brain

667
00:30:57,298 --> 00:31:01,980
strux what that must have been and tells

668
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:03,808
you oh that must be a vertical line but

669
00:31:01,980 --> 00:31:06,058
the problem is that with all this murky

670
00:31:03,808 --> 00:31:10,319
garbled stuff coming in all over the

671
00:31:06,058 --> 00:31:13,769
place how is it that we experience a

672
00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:16,168
single unitary conscious experience

673
00:31:13,769 --> 00:31:19,950
mm-hmm this is a mystery that no one has

674
00:31:16,169 --> 00:31:23,549
been able to solve because we have a

675
00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:25,769
hundred billion neurons functioning in

676
00:31:23,548 --> 00:31:28,009
the brain all of them processing

677
00:31:25,769 --> 00:31:31,079
different kinds of information and

678
00:31:28,009 --> 00:31:33,798
there's no reason on the surface that

679
00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:38,638
any of it should appear to be coherent

680
00:31:33,798 --> 00:31:40,190
yes and yeah that's right that any of it

681
00:31:38,638 --> 00:31:43,108
should be coherent that any of it should

682
00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:46,619
coalesce into a single unitary

683
00:31:43,108 --> 00:31:48,928
experience with quali quality means with

684
00:31:46,618 --> 00:31:52,829
with the sense of something going on

685
00:31:48,929 --> 00:31:54,269
mm-hmm there's that this is not I mean

686
00:31:52,829 --> 00:31:57,358
this is not a problem that anyone is

687
00:31:54,269 --> 00:31:59,388
solved and it's considered like the big

688
00:31:57,358 --> 00:32:01,769
problem amongst conventional

689
00:31:59,388 --> 00:32:05,219
neuroscientists is to understand how the

690
00:32:01,769 --> 00:32:09,089
brain is able to organize all of these

691
00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:11,159
inputs into what ultimately comes down

692
00:32:09,089 --> 00:32:14,819
to not only a coherent picture but

693
00:32:11,159 --> 00:32:15,690
actually a narrative for people yes yeah

694
00:32:14,819 --> 00:32:18,148
it is

695
00:32:15,690 --> 00:32:20,999
it's that stitious it is one of the big

696
00:32:18,148 --> 00:32:23,248
problems mm-hmm and and I know a lot of

697
00:32:20,999 --> 00:32:25,108
conventional neuroscientists seem to

698
00:32:23,249 --> 00:32:27,659
think well once we solve the binding

699
00:32:25,108 --> 00:32:35,778
problem then we'll have a complete

700
00:32:27,659 --> 00:32:38,879
picture of consciousness yeah that's

701
00:32:35,778 --> 00:32:41,038
yeah I think they're giving up on that

702
00:32:38,878 --> 00:32:42,868
though generally one of the points you

703
00:32:41,038 --> 00:32:46,730
make in your book is that there's really

704
00:32:42,868 --> 00:32:49,259
a growing consensus amongst

705
00:32:46,730 --> 00:32:51,839
neuroscientists and physical scientists

706
00:32:49,259 --> 00:32:55,858
and biological scientists in general

707
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:59,249
that we're entering into a what you call

708
00:32:55,858 --> 00:33:04,589
a post materialist worldview

709
00:32:59,249 --> 00:33:06,450
I think that and I don't I'm not trying

710
00:33:04,589 --> 00:33:08,249
to I'm not in the position that make a

711
00:33:06,450 --> 00:33:11,420
really good assessment of this but I

712
00:33:08,249 --> 00:33:13,980
think that increasingly neuroscientist

713
00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:16,080
running out of gas I mean the

714
00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:17,519
computational program ran out of gas

715
00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:20,609
which is why people have sort of

716
00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:22,410
defaulted back to the neuroscience

717
00:33:20,609 --> 00:33:24,299
position the computational position by

718
00:33:22,410 --> 00:33:27,930
the way was that consciousness arises

719
00:33:24,299 --> 00:33:29,819
out of proper types of calculations and

720
00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:32,130
and that gets away from some very

721
00:33:29,819 --> 00:33:33,869
obvious problems that well what if you

722
00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:36,210
know if you think you see red and it's

723
00:33:33,869 --> 00:33:37,739
this nerve cell doing it and you destroy

724
00:33:36,210 --> 00:33:40,079
the nerve cell but you still see red

725
00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:42,089
then you know obviously it's not that

726
00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:43,589
particular nerve so or than what is it

727
00:33:42,089 --> 00:33:45,480
and so then you have the notion of

728
00:33:43,589 --> 00:33:49,529
functionalism or computationalism that

729
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,759
what matters is not is not which part of

730
00:33:49,529 --> 00:33:52,319
the brain is doing but the fact that

731
00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,680
these calculations are being carried out

732
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:57,839
so then we had got into that whole

733
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,759
computational sort of program that went

734
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:02,909
on for quite a while and then sort of

735
00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:05,369
that one people just couldn't make it

736
00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:06,630
work so they kind of said okay well

737
00:34:05,369 --> 00:34:09,059
we're not doing that anymore now we're

738
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:10,740
doing neuroscience because we've

739
00:34:09,059 --> 00:34:14,190
actually got nerve cells in the brain

740
00:34:10,739 --> 00:34:15,809
and and you know somehow those nerve

741
00:34:14,190 --> 00:34:21,929
cells through some kind of calculating

742
00:34:15,809 --> 00:34:23,730
process are producing experience so

743
00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:25,889
they're back to the old problems without

744
00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:29,250
the kind of the easy fix of you know

745
00:34:25,889 --> 00:34:31,799
computationalism mm-hmm and the problem

746
00:34:29,250 --> 00:34:34,110
still is they're left with what David

747
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,150
Chalmers calls the hard problem of

748
00:34:34,110 --> 00:34:39,440
consciousness which is how do you get

749
00:34:36,150 --> 00:34:44,300
qualia or actual experience the

750
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:47,010
subjective sense of I exist from neurons

751
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:48,300
yeah exactly so even if you could solve

752
00:34:47,010 --> 00:34:55,610
the binding problem you still have the

753
00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:58,710
hard problem and there's no there's no I

754
00:34:55,610 --> 00:35:00,930
mean you just get these sort of hand

755
00:34:58,710 --> 00:35:02,490
waving emergentist arguments that well

756
00:35:00,929 --> 00:35:04,980
this is just what this is just what it's

757
00:35:02,489 --> 00:35:08,429
like when you know enough neurons

758
00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:09,780
calculate things but you don't know that

759
00:35:08,429 --> 00:35:10,829
you don't have any evidence for that you

760
00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:14,100
don't know if that's really what's

761
00:35:10,829 --> 00:35:16,590
happening you can't prove it so it's

762
00:35:14,099 --> 00:35:17,880
just kind of these hand waving arguments

763
00:35:16,590 --> 00:35:21,480
and more and more people are just saying

764
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:25,140
well look I mean I mean the whole point

765
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:27,210
of discussing the physical world as

766
00:35:25,139 --> 00:35:28,588
the physical world was to remove any

767
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:31,798
aspect their element of subjectivity

768
00:35:28,588 --> 00:35:33,179
experience from it so you've stripped it

769
00:35:31,798 --> 00:35:35,219
of anything that has anything to do with

770
00:35:33,179 --> 00:35:36,778
subjectivity that is now going to be our

771
00:35:35,219 --> 00:35:38,189
objective world now you develop your

772
00:35:36,778 --> 00:35:40,380
physics and all the rest of it and you

773
00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:41,700
learn how to do that really well and now

774
00:35:40,380 --> 00:35:43,500
you say oh now we're gonna put

775
00:35:41,699 --> 00:35:45,088
subjectivity back into it well wait a

776
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:48,449
minute hold on hold on you just

777
00:35:45,088 --> 00:35:49,920
carefully stripped it of any possibility

778
00:35:48,449 --> 00:35:52,139
of subjectivity so that you could have

779
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,849
your little objective world so now

780
00:35:52,139 --> 00:35:55,108
you're gonna put it back in well how is

781
00:35:53,849 --> 00:35:58,260
it gonna go in because you were so

782
00:35:55,108 --> 00:36:00,088
carefully stripped it out you can't you

783
00:35:58,260 --> 00:36:02,849
can't put it back in it's not just gonna

784
00:36:00,088 --> 00:36:04,889
show up and and this is that this is the

785
00:36:02,849 --> 00:36:06,630
big problem that that the physicalist

786
00:36:04,889 --> 00:36:10,018
theories consciousness is an

787
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:11,789
embarrassment like it's you know the

788
00:36:10,018 --> 00:36:13,229
universe could perfectly well run in the

789
00:36:11,789 --> 00:36:14,609
dark but it's not running in the dark

790
00:36:13,230 --> 00:36:16,829
because there's the light of

791
00:36:14,608 --> 00:36:18,239
consciousness so why is it there what's

792
00:36:16,829 --> 00:36:20,068
it doing there how did it get there

793
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:24,598
what's creating it where is it coming

794
00:36:20,068 --> 00:36:28,288
from what's and they the flicker filter

795
00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:30,809
model that you have presupposes that

796
00:36:28,289 --> 00:36:35,339
consciousness was always there to begin

797
00:36:30,809 --> 00:36:37,410
with at some level right so we we sort

798
00:36:35,338 --> 00:36:39,268
of we flipped the problem I mean we

799
00:36:37,409 --> 00:36:41,068
haven't really solved anything I mean

800
00:36:39,268 --> 00:36:43,169
nobody could solve anything anyway but

801
00:36:41,068 --> 00:36:44,159
we flipped the problem now it's like

802
00:36:43,170 --> 00:36:46,048
okay everything's made out of

803
00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:49,409
consciousness so then you say well where

804
00:36:46,048 --> 00:36:51,929
did that come from well I don't know but

805
00:36:49,409 --> 00:36:54,750
it is something his self-existence it

806
00:36:51,929 --> 00:36:57,719
gives you a scientific model that lets

807
00:36:54,750 --> 00:37:00,289
you incorporate a vast body of data that

808
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:03,419
is otherwise being swept under the rug

809
00:37:00,289 --> 00:37:04,950
yes and that's the purpose of a model

810
00:37:03,420 --> 00:37:07,409
it's not necessarily that it's a correct

811
00:37:04,949 --> 00:37:09,960
picture of reality it's that it it has

812
00:37:07,409 --> 00:37:11,730
the best goodness of fit to the data

813
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,230
that's what you're always looking for

814
00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:15,659
you're always looking for the theory

815
00:37:13,230 --> 00:37:17,250
with the best goodness of fit and Julie

816
00:37:15,659 --> 00:37:20,219
and I say that like at the end of the

817
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:21,809
book that we're perfectly confident that

818
00:37:20,219 --> 00:37:23,909
someday our theory will be tossed out

819
00:37:21,809 --> 00:37:25,559
because somebody will realize that there

820
00:37:23,909 --> 00:37:27,868
is a much better explanation for what's

821
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:30,000
going on so that's all you're ever able

822
00:37:27,869 --> 00:37:31,740
to do is to come up with you know a

823
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,690
theory with the best goodness-of-fit to

824
00:37:31,739 --> 00:37:38,329
empirical observation as a scientist

825
00:37:33,690 --> 00:37:41,659
mm-hmm now I I know for example

826
00:37:38,329 --> 00:37:44,059
deal extensively with psychokinesis in

827
00:37:41,659 --> 00:37:47,480
in your book that's a big interest of

828
00:37:44,059 --> 00:37:51,920
mine and maybe you could talk a little

829
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:52,820
bit about how psychokinesis or mind over

830
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,309
matter

831
00:37:52,820 --> 00:37:59,809
would work in the context of the flicker

832
00:37:55,309 --> 00:38:04,639
filter model well I think in the in the

833
00:37:59,809 --> 00:38:08,090
most dramatic case and we give we give

834
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:13,599
some examples from observations that

835
00:38:08,090 --> 00:38:16,420
have been made of Tomas Brazilian medium

836
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:20,000
Brazilian something or other

837
00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:23,150
Fuji's studied extensively by my dear

838
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,679
friend Lea Poulos leap fellows is

839
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:27,019
wonderful yeah so we have had some

840
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:29,719
really good conversations with a fellow

841
00:38:27,019 --> 00:38:33,139
Canadian yes fellow Canadian and he's a

842
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:38,659
clinical psychologist in Vancouver has

843
00:38:33,139 --> 00:38:40,339
studied Tomas and was Gary Lachman I

844
00:38:38,659 --> 00:38:41,119
believe who was the American and Gary

845
00:38:40,340 --> 00:38:44,300
Richman

846
00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:47,779
Gary Richman sorry yeah Gary Lachman is

847
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:50,570
another scholar of the esoteric who has

848
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:53,890
been a frequent guest on this program so

849
00:38:50,570 --> 00:38:53,890
I can understand the confusion

850
00:38:54,590 --> 00:39:01,490
who was a photographer as well you know

851
00:38:58,849 --> 00:39:05,659
a journalist who spent considerable time

852
00:39:01,489 --> 00:39:08,239
with Tomas well I think I think what's

853
00:39:05,659 --> 00:39:09,980
important I think probably the thing to

854
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,719
say here is that Tomas was able to

855
00:39:09,980 --> 00:39:14,599
demonstrate ostensibly demonstrate

856
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:17,809
phenomena that do not make any sense in

857
00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:21,579
any kind of mechanical way so for

858
00:39:17,809 --> 00:39:24,920
instance somebody would he would cut a

859
00:39:21,579 --> 00:39:28,159
okay now I'm gonna remember to 500

860
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:33,230
Queiroz Queiroz don't say it's a

861
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:35,719
basically a Brazilian currency redeeming

862
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:40,309
currency paper there's anything paper

863
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:42,469
currency cut it into four pieces have

864
00:39:40,309 --> 00:39:44,630
the person you know not himself but

865
00:39:42,469 --> 00:39:48,559
someone else hold it in his or her hand

866
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:50,910
do his raw thing and and the person

867
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:52,920
opens the hand

868
00:39:50,909 --> 00:39:55,098
and the the currency has been

869
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,019
reconstituted but in the wrong order and

870
00:39:55,099 --> 00:40:03,088
and you think like okay well that didn't

871
00:39:58,019 --> 00:40:05,250
happen but if you if you think well what

872
00:40:03,088 --> 00:40:06,690
if it did since people ostensibly are

873
00:40:05,250 --> 00:40:10,769
carrying these around with them and it's

874
00:40:06,690 --> 00:40:15,750
been witnessed by credible witnesses how

875
00:40:10,769 --> 00:40:18,838
would you explain it and so in the

876
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:21,809
flicker filter theory it's it's not an

877
00:40:18,838 --> 00:40:23,279
issue at all because you go to the deep

878
00:40:21,809 --> 00:40:27,059
state you're going to a deep state

879
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:28,740
constantly anyway while your state so

880
00:40:27,059 --> 00:40:31,230
this would be deep consciousness the pre

881
00:40:28,739 --> 00:40:33,149
physical substrate so basically when the

882
00:40:31,230 --> 00:40:35,730
universe is in the off position so it's

883
00:40:33,150 --> 00:40:37,170
in the on off on off on off so when

884
00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:39,510
you're in the off position you just go

885
00:40:37,170 --> 00:40:41,639
well let's just let's just pull out this

886
00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:44,490
now so you pull the now off the shelf

887
00:40:41,639 --> 00:40:47,429
that has you know that currency you know

888
00:40:44,489 --> 00:40:49,229
put together in this weird order and you

889
00:40:47,429 --> 00:40:53,639
prop that one down that becomes your now

890
00:40:49,230 --> 00:40:57,119
it's so it suggests Saul most a power of

891
00:40:53,639 --> 00:41:00,210
omniscience your omnipotence yes yes

892
00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:03,119
exactly and this is I think this is very

893
00:41:00,210 --> 00:41:05,369
important because you sort of see this

894
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:07,380
progression that people have made like

895
00:41:05,369 --> 00:41:09,568
they say oh well you know what it's not

896
00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:10,170
matter its energy you know everything is

897
00:41:09,568 --> 00:41:12,088
energy

898
00:41:10,170 --> 00:41:13,889
I think oh wow you know what you know

899
00:41:12,088 --> 00:41:16,380
what it's not really energy that's

900
00:41:13,889 --> 00:41:18,568
that's doing it it's information it's

901
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:19,920
the information that you're jiggling in

902
00:41:18,568 --> 00:41:21,538
that you're changing or something like

903
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,599
that notice that that requires less

904
00:41:21,539 --> 00:41:26,278
effort but then like I'm saying what we

905
00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:27,778
haven't gone far enough you we can

906
00:41:26,278 --> 00:41:29,278
actually go one more step and that is

907
00:41:27,778 --> 00:41:31,170
that it's not information its meaning

908
00:41:29,278 --> 00:41:32,639
mm-hmm and if you jiggle the meaning in

909
00:41:31,170 --> 00:41:35,010
this case you're switching and switching

910
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:36,568
out the meaning fields and if you can

911
00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:39,690
jiggle the meaning notice how little

912
00:41:36,568 --> 00:41:41,579
work is required so in order to create

913
00:41:39,690 --> 00:41:42,990
these kind of psychokinetic effects like

914
00:41:41,579 --> 00:41:46,048
people sometimes think that you need to

915
00:41:42,989 --> 00:41:48,509
have this massive power of the mind and

916
00:41:46,048 --> 00:41:50,400
you're crunching things together and

917
00:41:48,510 --> 00:41:52,319
you're and you're you know creating all

918
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,930
these power impacts of powerful forces

919
00:41:52,318 --> 00:41:56,940
at some level but maybe it's not like

920
00:41:54,929 --> 00:41:59,190
that at all maybe it's just as simple as

921
00:41:56,940 --> 00:42:00,929
you know a tiny tiny movement of the

922
00:41:59,190 --> 00:42:04,079
mind and everything is completely

923
00:42:00,929 --> 00:42:04,679
different and it's completely different

924
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:06,539
because

925
00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:10,348
in the off because you've figured out

926
00:42:06,539 --> 00:42:13,469
how you can create that change in the

927
00:42:10,349 --> 00:42:15,329
off position and so you're basically

928
00:42:13,469 --> 00:42:18,588
selected a different now and so when the

929
00:42:15,329 --> 00:42:21,869
now comes down it comes down with the

930
00:42:18,588 --> 00:42:23,219
with the currency put back together in

931
00:42:21,869 --> 00:42:24,140
the wrong order and everybody goes well

932
00:42:23,219 --> 00:42:27,169
how does that happen

933
00:42:24,139 --> 00:42:30,118
of course people like Tomas are

934
00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:32,490
extremely rare and on top of being

935
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:35,400
extremely rare the things they do are so

936
00:42:32,489 --> 00:42:37,879
unbelievable that even an open-minded

937
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,380
person may have a very hard time

938
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:43,410
integrating or digesting what they've

939
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:45,780
just witnessed that's right yes and of

940
00:42:43,409 --> 00:42:48,210
course I'm familiar with your

941
00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:50,640
investigation of Ted Owens who was you

942
00:42:48,210 --> 00:42:52,440
know one of these sort of charismatic

943
00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:55,078
figures who had these sorts of

944
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,730
capabilities and just how unbelievable

945
00:42:55,079 --> 00:43:00,869
it is to imagine that anybody could have

946
00:42:56,730 --> 00:43:03,358
done the kinds of things that he did so

947
00:43:00,869 --> 00:43:06,869
so we talked about the boggle threshold

948
00:43:03,358 --> 00:43:09,690
in the book mm-hmm and the everybody has

949
00:43:06,869 --> 00:43:13,650
a follicle threshold and this is sort of

950
00:43:09,690 --> 00:43:17,849
the level of anomaly that they are

951
00:43:13,650 --> 00:43:21,829
willing to accept and no more like well

952
00:43:17,849 --> 00:43:24,990
yeah maybe sometimes there is some

953
00:43:21,829 --> 00:43:26,519
telepathy but that could be explained by

954
00:43:24,989 --> 00:43:28,739
some kind of electromagnetic waves that

955
00:43:26,519 --> 00:43:30,599
are moving over the person's brain and

956
00:43:28,739 --> 00:43:34,229
they the other and then you go okay okay

957
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:37,798
fine fine I'm okay with that uh maybe

958
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:40,199
maybe sometimes somebody might be able

959
00:43:37,798 --> 00:43:42,298
to jiggle a Rago the random event

960
00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:43,919
generator a tiny tiny little bit but

961
00:43:42,298 --> 00:43:45,568
it's inconsequential it doesn't matter

962
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,130
it's not anything it's like I don't know

963
00:43:45,568 --> 00:43:49,079
why it happens but it might happen but

964
00:43:47,130 --> 00:43:50,760
certainly certainly there no aliens out

965
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:54,119
there and there's no life after death

966
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:56,790
nobody can actually make make eggs hatch

967
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:59,519
and little chickens run around and in 17

968
00:43:56,789 --> 00:44:02,460
minutes make just something that Tomas

969
00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:05,579
was reported to have done yes exactly

970
00:44:02,460 --> 00:44:07,619
and so you've like so everybody has a

971
00:44:05,579 --> 00:44:09,630
boggle threshold in' and then when you

972
00:44:07,619 --> 00:44:12,240
get to the point where okay I'm willing

973
00:44:09,630 --> 00:44:13,798
to accept this but not this and so once

974
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,739
you actually realize that that's the

975
00:44:13,798 --> 00:44:17,889
process John Lilly used to talk about

976
00:44:16,739 --> 00:44:20,919
that by the way

977
00:44:17,889 --> 00:44:23,980
in his center of the cyclone where he

978
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:28,059
says that is really the only restriction

979
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:30,070
on what you can see in reality is what

980
00:44:28,059 --> 00:44:33,489
what the limits of your own beliefs are

981
00:44:30,070 --> 00:44:36,519
and so as you start to relinquish and

982
00:44:33,489 --> 00:44:37,899
release what you think is possible isn't

983
00:44:36,519 --> 00:44:39,550
what you think isn't possible you

984
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:41,950
acknowledge that you have a bottle

985
00:44:39,550 --> 00:44:43,860
threshold and what if you can go past

986
00:44:41,949 --> 00:44:47,079
that bottle threshold what if you can

987
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:49,390
imagine that something else like could

988
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:51,429
occur and then you start seeing even

989
00:44:49,389 --> 00:44:53,469
stranger things and even stranger sorts

990
00:44:51,429 --> 00:44:55,839
of things start happening it's like the

991
00:44:53,469 --> 00:44:58,059
universe just comes apart and this is

992
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,440
why I feel like why I've sort of been

993
00:44:58,059 --> 00:45:01,059
talking about that my theory of meaning

994
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,349
feels the meaning feels to hold it

995
00:45:01,059 --> 00:45:04,539
together because if there's nothing left

996
00:45:02,349 --> 00:45:06,610
to hold anything together you know let

997
00:45:04,539 --> 00:45:09,849
me tell you a brief story that is

998
00:45:06,610 --> 00:45:14,289
relevant to this point I remember some

999
00:45:09,849 --> 00:45:17,170
30 40 years ago I had a copy of the book

1000
00:45:14,289 --> 00:45:19,539
by Lee Poulos with Gary Richmond about

1001
00:45:17,170 --> 00:45:23,380
Tomas I think it was called miracles and

1002
00:45:19,539 --> 00:45:26,320
other realities and I was reading it to

1003
00:45:23,380 --> 00:45:28,690
my mentor Arthur M young theorist

1004
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:31,650
inventor of the Bell Helicopter and a

1005
00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:34,980
man deeply involved in funding

1006
00:45:31,650 --> 00:45:38,380
parapsychology and studying alchemy and

1007
00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:40,809
totally open-minded and I was reading a

1008
00:45:38,380 --> 00:45:43,210
passage in which they were describing a

1009
00:45:40,809 --> 00:45:46,900
session with Tomas in which there were

1010
00:45:43,210 --> 00:45:50,110
metal folding chairs and the big metal

1011
00:45:46,900 --> 00:45:52,329
folding chair started melting right in

1012
00:45:50,110 --> 00:45:56,079
front of them and not because it was hot

1013
00:45:52,329 --> 00:45:58,539
or anything as an Arthur Young one of

1014
00:45:56,079 --> 00:46:01,420
the most open-minded people I ever knew

1015
00:45:58,539 --> 00:46:09,309
yelled at me he says stop stop he said I

1016
00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:12,039
can't take it anymore yes and this is

1017
00:46:09,309 --> 00:46:15,549
why in Chapter 7 Julie and I spent so

1018
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:18,789
much time talking about how to

1019
00:46:15,550 --> 00:46:20,440
incorporate subjectivity into the study

1020
00:46:18,789 --> 00:46:23,380
of consciousness and what are the really

1021
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:26,139
key aspects of that is the importance of

1022
00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:29,400
self development mm-hmm the importance

1023
00:46:26,139 --> 00:46:29,400
of researchers

1024
00:46:29,429 --> 00:46:33,519
[Music]

1025
00:46:30,659 --> 00:46:35,980
transforming themselves so that they are

1026
00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:38,259
capable of seeing things the way they

1027
00:46:35,980 --> 00:46:39,940
are they're capable of thinking

1028
00:46:38,260 --> 00:46:41,830
logically they're capable of

1029
00:46:39,940 --> 00:46:45,760
neutralizing their biases as much as

1030
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:49,239
possible they're capable of interacting

1031
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:54,340
with phenomena in a way that doesn't

1032
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:55,929
skew twist and negate and and nullify

1033
00:46:54,340 --> 00:46:57,190
the kinds of things that they're

1034
00:46:55,929 --> 00:46:59,500
actually looking at it that they're

1035
00:46:57,190 --> 00:47:03,099
investigating and and I think that is a

1036
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:05,800
really really core aspect something that

1037
00:47:03,099 --> 00:47:08,319
I emphasize with my students the core

1038
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,570
aspect of being a good scientist is

1039
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,550
self-development learning how to develop

1040
00:47:10,570 --> 00:47:16,420
yourself so that you can encounter

1041
00:47:12,550 --> 00:47:19,480
phenomena learn from them document them

1042
00:47:16,420 --> 00:47:20,920
properly relay all of that to the

1043
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,409
scientific community and learn through

1044
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,849
the proper channels so that we can sort

1045
00:47:23,409 --> 00:47:26,799
of move our understanding of

1046
00:47:24,849 --> 00:47:29,230
consciousness and reality forward you

1047
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,930
you point out that psychology was

1048
00:47:29,230 --> 00:47:34,179
originally based on the methodology of

1049
00:47:31,929 --> 00:47:36,099
introspection and then that was

1050
00:47:34,179 --> 00:47:39,549
abandoned with the development of

1051
00:47:36,099 --> 00:47:43,480
behaviorism and now you talk about the

1052
00:47:39,550 --> 00:47:49,860
need for a new type of introspection in

1053
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:49,860
psychology I'm not sure if it's new

1054
00:47:53,489 --> 00:48:05,319
actually ancient I mean it's okay there

1055
00:48:03,369 --> 00:48:09,880
are two two aspects of this one is that

1056
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:11,620
I think that understanding introspection

1057
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,619
and introspective techniques already

1058
00:48:11,619 --> 00:48:17,380
depends upon a particular theory of mind

1059
00:48:14,619 --> 00:48:19,779
that we have right and our theories of

1060
00:48:17,380 --> 00:48:21,730
mind might be wrong this is something

1061
00:48:19,780 --> 00:48:23,740
that's been going making the rounds

1062
00:48:21,730 --> 00:48:25,329
lately in cognitive psychology and so on

1063
00:48:23,739 --> 00:48:26,919
the whole notion of theory of mind and

1064
00:48:25,329 --> 00:48:29,529
how people use theory of mind for

1065
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:33,220
interacting with other people so our

1066
00:48:29,530 --> 00:48:36,100
ideas about introspection are probably

1067
00:48:33,219 --> 00:48:37,629
badly flawed anyway and so if you start

1068
00:48:36,099 --> 00:48:39,569
and you go okay let me interest back

1069
00:48:37,630 --> 00:48:41,860
then you go oh what am i doing anyway

1070
00:48:39,570 --> 00:48:43,390
what am I supposed to be doing what am I

1071
00:48:41,860 --> 00:48:45,970
trying to do

1072
00:48:43,389 --> 00:48:48,608
what am i how can I look at myself I

1073
00:48:45,969 --> 00:48:50,739
mean I think that this is why sort of

1074
00:48:48,608 --> 00:48:53,858
behaviors and took over because it's

1075
00:48:50,739 --> 00:48:55,568
it's difficult it's not easy to do as

1076
00:48:53,858 --> 00:48:58,000
other people couldn't do it it's just

1077
00:48:55,568 --> 00:48:59,318
that it was difficult to do and some

1078
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,579
people just there were other things they

1079
00:48:59,318 --> 00:49:02,199
wanted to look at and think about that

1080
00:49:00,579 --> 00:49:04,390
he just pushed forward that agenda which

1081
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:06,308
I think is perfectly legitimate so

1082
00:49:04,389 --> 00:49:09,098
that's the one part the other part which

1083
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:11,380
which brings the anomalous ingredients

1084
00:49:09,099 --> 00:49:14,950
and aspects back in is the part part of

1085
00:49:11,380 --> 00:49:18,490
shared mind that you can get to a point

1086
00:49:14,949 --> 00:49:20,858
where you can actually experience what

1087
00:49:18,489 --> 00:49:22,989
the other person is experiencing you can

1088
00:49:20,858 --> 00:49:25,268
tell what their experiences and so

1089
00:49:22,989 --> 00:49:30,098
you're you're sharing in that shared

1090
00:49:25,268 --> 00:49:31,989
mind with another person there is I

1091
00:49:30,099 --> 00:49:32,559
don't know if this is just a myth an

1092
00:49:31,989 --> 00:49:34,298
urban myth

1093
00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:35,680
or whether this was something that he

1094
00:49:34,298 --> 00:49:37,599
was thinking of course we talked about

1095
00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:40,808
Sigmund Freud a little bit in Chapter

1096
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:44,250
two and his ambivalent ambivalence

1097
00:49:40,809 --> 00:49:47,859
towards telepathy that the whole

1098
00:49:44,250 --> 00:49:50,639
psychoanalytic method of tracking the

1099
00:49:47,858 --> 00:49:53,949
person's unconscious actually involved

1100
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:55,960
such clairvoyant ability or telepathic

1101
00:49:53,949 --> 00:49:57,578
ability that that was actually at the

1102
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,230
heart of it that's what you're doing

1103
00:49:57,579 --> 00:50:01,450
while the person is looking at the

1104
00:49:59,230 --> 00:50:02,920
ceiling which is an ambiguous stimulus

1105
00:50:01,449 --> 00:50:05,679
and talking about whatever is happening

1106
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,150
in her in her mind you're tracking the

1107
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:09,098
movement of the unconscious you're

1108
00:50:07,150 --> 00:50:10,480
tracking it through sort of sharing the

1109
00:50:09,099 --> 00:50:15,009
experience that the person is having

1110
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:16,690
directly so I think that we didn't get

1111
00:50:15,009 --> 00:50:19,240
into that at all in the book because

1112
00:50:16,690 --> 00:50:20,528
that's a little there were lots of

1113
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,808
things we had to leave out because they

1114
00:50:20,528 --> 00:50:25,298
would they would have gone a little past

1115
00:50:22,809 --> 00:50:28,180
most people's boggle thresholds and that

1116
00:50:25,298 --> 00:50:30,969
was Freud's issue also that he was aware

1117
00:50:28,179 --> 00:50:33,608
of telepathy and its role but he felt

1118
00:50:30,969 --> 00:50:36,759
that if he was to open and public about

1119
00:50:33,608 --> 00:50:39,969
it that it would have destroyed this

1120
00:50:36,759 --> 00:50:43,449
young movement of psychoanalysis yeah

1121
00:50:39,969 --> 00:50:46,288
exactly he was very protective of you

1122
00:50:43,449 --> 00:50:48,098
know with the sort of the

1123
00:50:46,289 --> 00:50:49,299
institutionalization of his way of

1124
00:50:48,099 --> 00:50:53,380
thinking about the psyche that he was

1125
00:50:49,298 --> 00:50:56,190
trying to create so I think I think that

1126
00:50:53,380 --> 00:51:00,960
but I think that that is where the

1127
00:50:56,190 --> 00:51:04,690
the frontier lives is individuals

1128
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:08,019
introspecting and understanding what it

1129
00:51:04,690 --> 00:51:10,389
is that they are finding and that we

1130
00:51:08,019 --> 00:51:12,610
become we become the instruments we

1131
00:51:10,389 --> 00:51:15,670
become the microscopes and telescopes we

1132
00:51:12,610 --> 00:51:17,289
become the we become the observers and

1133
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:19,990
then now you get back to Charlie tart

1134
00:51:17,289 --> 00:51:21,789
state-specific science is that that what

1135
00:51:19,989 --> 00:51:23,739
you're doing is you have investigators

1136
00:51:21,789 --> 00:51:25,389
that could agree on what it is that they

1137
00:51:23,739 --> 00:51:27,909
found or disagree on what is it they

1138
00:51:25,389 --> 00:51:30,219
found or or you know bringing back

1139
00:51:27,909 --> 00:51:31,659
information or the remainder of the

1140
00:51:30,219 --> 00:51:34,149
scientific community from their own

1141
00:51:31,659 --> 00:51:37,779
investigations or explorations will you

1142
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:41,559
seem to be suggesting that the very

1143
00:51:37,780 --> 00:51:44,740
process of introspection is akin to the

1144
00:51:41,559 --> 00:51:49,719
process of telepathy in some way reading

1145
00:51:44,739 --> 00:51:52,539
the mind of another person I've written

1146
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:56,769
a new book and I get into this a little

1147
00:51:52,539 --> 00:52:00,690
bit in Chapter five and one of the

1148
00:51:56,769 --> 00:52:03,369
things I wonder about is whether our own

1149
00:52:00,690 --> 00:52:05,980
view of the mind the way we look at our

1150
00:52:03,369 --> 00:52:09,279
own mind is actually the same as what we

1151
00:52:05,980 --> 00:52:12,639
do when we're doing remote viewing in

1152
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:14,110
other words you can't look at your own

1153
00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:16,449
mind because you are your own mind you

1154
00:52:14,110 --> 00:52:19,570
are the subject but what if what if

1155
00:52:16,449 --> 00:52:21,789
you're using your capacity for telepathy

1156
00:52:19,570 --> 00:52:23,650
or clairvoyance to look at your own mind

1157
00:52:21,789 --> 00:52:26,980
and that that's actually what's involved

1158
00:52:23,650 --> 00:52:29,800
in successful introspection that's a

1159
00:52:26,980 --> 00:52:34,389
fascinating suggestion I can't wait to

1160
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:37,780
read your new book well yes as soon as

1161
00:52:34,389 --> 00:52:40,809
we can get it by someone yeah we'll have

1162
00:52:37,780 --> 00:52:44,460
to do another whole interview just on

1163
00:52:40,809 --> 00:52:47,500
that very thought because it seems

1164
00:52:44,460 --> 00:52:50,440
extremely provocative and potentially

1165
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:54,280
groundbreaking see what's happened

1166
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:58,929
historically is that nobody's really

1167
00:52:54,280 --> 00:53:00,550
taken on local mind seriously because

1168
00:52:58,929 --> 00:53:02,710
everybody so attached to the materialist

1169
00:53:00,550 --> 00:53:05,530
version of reality and sort of the skull

1170
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:08,490
and case notion of consciousness once

1171
00:53:05,530 --> 00:53:09,870
you break it open and you say okay

1172
00:53:08,489 --> 00:53:13,449
non-local

1173
00:53:09,869 --> 00:53:16,059
phenomena exists then all of these kinds

1174
00:53:13,449 --> 00:53:17,529
of permutations become apparent to you

1175
00:53:16,059 --> 00:53:19,509
and you go whoa is that happening

1176
00:53:17,530 --> 00:53:23,380
like is that happening can I actually

1177
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:26,200
remote view my own mind that that's one

1178
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:28,480
of the you know possibilities and then

1179
00:53:26,199 --> 00:53:31,359
we and and in terms of you know the rags

1180
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:33,039
like wait a minute if the person sitting

1181
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,510
in front of us infecting it well so is

1182
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:36,699
the researcher well so is the person

1183
00:53:34,510 --> 00:53:39,130
reading a paper about this later so

1184
00:53:36,699 --> 00:53:40,869
talking about a random event generator

1185
00:53:39,130 --> 00:53:42,910
that the brunt of event generator we've

1186
00:53:40,869 --> 00:53:44,289
been I've had students in my lab working

1187
00:53:42,909 --> 00:53:46,019
playing with the random in general

1188
00:53:44,289 --> 00:53:49,719
you've got some very interesting results

1189
00:53:46,019 --> 00:53:51,460
and like who's that he was influencing

1190
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,609
it discarded entities could be

1191
00:53:51,460 --> 00:53:56,409
influencing it in fact we did a study

1192
00:53:53,610 --> 00:53:59,470
experiment three plus in which we we sat

1193
00:53:56,409 --> 00:54:01,779
we basically said okay we're not gonna

1194
00:53:59,469 --> 00:54:08,739
try to influence it discarded entities

1195
00:54:01,780 --> 00:54:11,050
you do it so so now now you see this is

1196
00:54:08,739 --> 00:54:12,479
sunny to squish into ITC instrumental

1197
00:54:11,050 --> 00:54:15,940
transcommunication

1198
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:17,500
in the ocean that you know discarded

1199
00:54:15,940 --> 00:54:21,940
entities get the influence electronic

1200
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:23,710
devices so where does a you know where

1201
00:54:21,940 --> 00:54:27,909
does the psychokinesis experiment end

1202
00:54:23,710 --> 00:54:31,179
and an ITC experiment begin mm-hmm they

1203
00:54:27,909 --> 00:54:33,909
blur especially when hue problem one of

1204
00:54:31,179 --> 00:54:36,279
the participants in experiment three in

1205
00:54:33,909 --> 00:54:38,019
fact what she did was at one point she

1206
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:41,140
just went fine like she's a Reiki healer

1207
00:54:38,019 --> 00:54:44,019
so she goes fine I'll just use my

1208
00:54:41,139 --> 00:54:48,879
healing masters to move this thing or am

1209
00:54:44,019 --> 00:54:51,429
i doing yeah and the argument that some

1210
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,769
people make is is that these discarnate

1211
00:54:51,429 --> 00:54:56,409
entities are like psychological props

1212
00:54:53,769 --> 00:54:58,889
that individuals use because they don't

1213
00:54:56,409 --> 00:55:01,779
want to have to feel at the ego level

1214
00:54:58,889 --> 00:55:04,869
responsible for producing psychokinesis

1215
00:55:01,780 --> 00:55:08,440
so they if you say oh I've got a spirit

1216
00:55:04,869 --> 00:55:10,719
guide or an ancestor or a deity or some

1217
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,880
some other entity then then the

1218
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:14,949
psychokinetic events can happen and you

1219
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:17,710
you don't have to feel personally

1220
00:55:14,949 --> 00:55:21,639
responsible I'm sure a lot of that goes

1221
00:55:17,710 --> 00:55:23,320
on but that doesn't rule out the fact

1222
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:26,019
that there could be other

1223
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:28,390
is an amazing thing that you're you've

1224
00:55:26,019 --> 00:55:30,869
written a book published by the American

1225
00:55:28,389 --> 00:55:33,670
Psychological Association in which you

1226
00:55:30,869 --> 00:55:36,519
seriously look at the question our

1227
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:38,309
discarnate entities real can are there

1228
00:55:36,519 --> 00:55:42,789
ways that we can model that

1229
00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:45,639
scientifically yes yes we we did that

1230
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:48,159
you know there was a lot of fun and

1231
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:50,710
you're suggesting that the flicker

1232
00:55:48,159 --> 00:55:58,469
filter model does allow for discarnate

1233
00:55:50,710 --> 00:56:01,030
entities of course yes we might need to

1234
00:55:58,469 --> 00:56:03,009
flesh out the model a little bit by

1235
00:56:01,030 --> 00:56:04,450
having multiple layers for example so

1236
00:56:03,010 --> 00:56:06,070
that you go to a layer where you have

1237
00:56:04,449 --> 00:56:09,039
discarded entities but it's not the deep

1238
00:56:06,070 --> 00:56:14,070
consciousness you can also have entities

1239
00:56:09,039 --> 00:56:17,440
and deep consciousness yeah I was

1240
00:56:14,070 --> 00:56:19,690
there's a paper by Federico faggin where

1241
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:23,159
he talks about he says physical reality

1242
00:56:19,690 --> 00:56:27,519
is the byproduct of the communication of

1243
00:56:23,159 --> 00:56:29,619
entities we can't see such that well I I

1244
00:56:27,519 --> 00:56:33,070
just have to commend you because you're

1245
00:56:29,619 --> 00:56:35,319
willing to take such a bold look at the

1246
00:56:33,070 --> 00:56:38,890
data and at the same time you're very

1247
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:42,910
careful to develop models that are

1248
00:56:38,889 --> 00:56:47,170
grounded in the empirical database of

1249
00:56:42,909 --> 00:56:49,929
psychology neurology and even physics

1250
00:56:47,170 --> 00:56:52,920
and mathematics so it's very very

1251
00:56:49,929 --> 00:56:55,029
important work that you're doing iman's

1252
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:57,460
thank you I do my best

1253
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:59,860
you you're doing an excellent job and I

1254
00:56:57,460 --> 00:57:01,869
look forward to the possibility of

1255
00:56:59,860 --> 00:57:03,370
having future discussions with you

1256
00:57:01,869 --> 00:57:06,849
because I know we're just scratching the

1257
00:57:03,369 --> 00:57:09,699
surface right now let's do it I'm very

1258
00:57:06,849 --> 00:57:13,960
very hints of work thank you so much for

1259
00:57:09,699 --> 00:57:17,228
being with me it was fun I enjoyed it

1260
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,228
[Music]

1261
00:57:21,980 --> 00:57:32,248
[Music]

1262
00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:43,739
you