Subject: Martin Luther King.  Part 4 of 4.                           Feb. 
17, 2012.

  This talks about Nicodemus.

...........................................................
...........................................................

SB: Well, there are some who consider that there are levels of
knowledge, from mystery to belief to thought to feeling, to
actually touching something, and on up to an enlightened or
natural knowing. And they say that belief is a low dimension
of knowledge. If I simply believe in you as I believe in Visa
or MasterCard or the government, so to speak, is that enough
to

J: No, of course not. That is like believing what you are watching
on TV, or believing in what you see on the news.

What I am asking - and I invite you to believe in me the way
that I believe in you - is to come to know me. The belief is the
starting, the faith is the starting point, but as you come to know
me, as you come to know me, you come to know all. As you
touch me, you touch all. If you know and believe in me, then
you are there, you are home. But we do not believe in the way
that it is used colloquially or in these levels.

Because if there is a small child who only holds belief, if
there is a man on Wall Street that only holds belief, or a
shepherd in the Sudan, do I say no, because they have only
believed? It is these ones that I feel very often the most
attraction to appear to, so that they will have their belief
confirmed. So do not underestimate belief. But I mean it
in the truest heart sense of belief. I do not mean it
unwittingly buying whatever is told to you. It is what you
explore with your mind and your heart and your very core,
and what seems to you to be beyond question. And
therefore through that you come to know. It isn't always
through study. Or sometimes the study is directly with me.

SB: That's very clear. It sounds to me that what you mean
by believe in me is somewhat similar to what you mean by
-Come to me, -

J: Yes.

SB: - approach me, love me.  - Is that correct?

J: That is correct. And it is an open invitation.

SB: Well, some of your disciples said to you at one point, ---Well,
now, L-rd, now you're speaking plainly, - but you were not
speaking plainly at that moment, were you? As far as I can
recall. What you said had very deep meaning.

J: That is exactly correct.

SB: [laugh] I thought that was a form of a joke that was left
in the Bible!

J: Yes. I was teased a lot, you know.

SB: [laugh] Uh-hunh. What - we've just got a few minutes left.
Can you talk to us about Nicodemus and your interaction
with him? What was happening there at a deeper level
than the words indicate, L-rd?

J: It was a soul-to-soul conversation. It was an awakening
of his being.
It was a plea for belief in justice. It was an opportunity to
shift some axis almost of power. That is what was taking
place.

SB: And he was a member of the Pharisees, was he not?

J: Yes.

SB: So he was a member of the powers-that-be of that age
and was taking a tremendous risk in talking to you, was
he not?

J: He was taking a risk, but understand, he was also
representative of a group. So it was not as great a risk
as you might assume. You know the Pharisees did not
care for me.

SB: Yes. [laugh] Yes.

J: But it was a - there was what appeared on the surface
and then there was the true questions that we were
asking one another. And it was his opportunity to shift
and to become a very active supporter. And part of his
question to me was, -Will you continue on this journey that
you know is going to lead into trouble for you? - That was
the real conversation,  and what was the purpose of it.
And it was about faith.

SB: All right, -ord. Thank you for coming tonight.

J: You are welcome. Farewell.

SB: Farewell.

Part 4 of 4.

John Winston.   johnfw@mlode.com