"The_Sage" <a.b@c.com> wrote in message
news:0doml09hjr4m4pmomrjhk0b15agc87tqam@4ax.com...

Reply to article by: "Kavik Kang" <Kavik_Kang@hotmail.com>
Date written: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:52:08 GMT
MsgID:<IOm6d.12592$gG4.3808@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

I'm certain that intelligent life exists somewhere else other than

Earth, and I

am just as certain, based on the available evidence, that none of that
intelligent life has ever visited us. This is based on objective

demonstrable

evidence and known facts, not mere reports of evidence and unknown

facts.

I'm not a "saucerhead", in fact we seem to share a lot of views such as
those you expressed later in this post.  I am also not defending the
previous poster, so there's no need to challenge me with what he said.

You

drew me back in here because you appear to be an honest sceptic rather

than

"Raving Lunatic Debunker", I thought your kind was extinct in this
newsgroup:-)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that, after reviewing the evidence
available, you do not believe that any alien species have ever visited

us?

Correct.

You'd be amazed at how many people who claim to drape themselves in science
disagree with that position around this place.

Don't you think that claiming that you are "certain" that such an event

has

not occurred is just as dogmatic a position as the most rabid

"saucerhead"?

After all, while there is certainly no conclusive evidence of such
visitations, there is evidence. The only way it can be claimed that there
is "not one shred of evidence" (the age old cliche) is to adopt a

standard

of evidence for which no evidence at all can be shown for many things

that

are known to exist, such as the Great Wall of China. I can certainly
appreciate and respect the opinion of anyone who believes, based on a
preponderance of the evidence, that no alien species have ever visited

this

planet. That is a more than reasonable and rational conclusion based on

the

evidence that is available. But to say that you are "certain" that such

an

event has never occured seems too me to be every bit as dogmatic,
unscientific, and biased a position as that held be the most hopeless of
"saucerheads".

That is a strawman and not something I ever claimed or implied. What I

really

said was that no one has ever demonstrated any such evidence that any ETs

have

ever visited us -- and that includes you now too. Based on what we

actually do

know and what we can actually objectively observe about the world around

us,

there is no evidence that there is evidence that any ETs have ever visited

us.

That is not dogma, that is a blatent fact.

Yes, nothing I would qualify for evidence that ETs have visited us.  I was a
little confused by the second to last last sentance.  There is evidence,
just not conclusive evidence.  Hudreds of thousands, if not millions of
witnesses is evidence.  The 5% of unexplained cases in both US and USSR case
files is evidence.  Cases like Beligum '91 is evidence.  None of it
conclusive, but it is unreasonable to insist that there is no evidence at
all... which is exactly what many people do.

Imagine that it is the year 2204 and Earth has just discovered it's first
planet supporting animal life. On that planet is a species similar to an
Earth gorilla, only much more violent. Do you believe that we, a species
then-capable of interstellar travel, would have no interest in that

barbaric

species? Wasn't it, in fact, one of our primary motivations for becoming

a

species capable of interstellar travel?

You are asking me if a barbaric species would be interested in another

barbaric

species, and yes, barbaric species tend to be interested in other barbaric
speices. But you are assuming that our species will forever remain

barbaric

rather than evolve as it has been and that is just not a reasonable

unspoken

assumption. I am reminded in this instance of a famous quote...

   "I would like to share a revelation that I've had, during my time here.

It

   came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that

you're

   not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet, instinctively

develops an

   equilibrium with it's surrounding environment, but you humans do not.

You

   move to an area and you multiply and multiply, until every natural

resource

   is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

There

   is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do

you know

   what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this

planet; you

   are a plague and we are the cure" (Agent Smith, THE MATRIX, Warner

Brothers,

   1999)

And you assume that only a species so advanced that they would have no
interest in other alien cultures could ever find us.  That's pretty
advanced.  You'd have to have been around for a very long time to have seen
and learned so much that you just had no new interest in newfound
civilizations.  You certainly would have had to have had an interest in many
along the way, to reach that level of apathy.  It would seem that only some
type of paranormal "transcendance" could make what you suggest a realistic
possibility.

Obviously, a species intelligent enough to traverse light years of space

would

be a species that learned to not destroy itself and it's environment; a

species

that would not want to spread to another part of the galaxy like a

plague --

those are things WE humans would do if we could travel through space

today, but

that doesn't imply everyone else in the universe thinks like we do.

Who knows how "cheating Einstien" might work?  If it's something like a
"wormhole" our solar system could be the very first one a species found.
And any species that goes into space is very likely to spend at least the
early era of their time there seeking out life.  Finding "someone else out
there" is very likely to be a nearly universal trait, if not the only
universal trait, of "interstellar civilization".  Even if it's not, at least
some species would be "explorers".

I've spent all my life looking for anything odd and while I have found

many

things that were odd, none of them were in the category of being

paranormal.

There is no such thing as the paranormal, it is all wishful thinking.

But there is nothing what-so-ever "paranormal" about aliens. They would

be

entirely normal. Simply another real, tangible species that had developed
on another world. There isn't anything paranormal about that.

That is only your opinion but it does not reflect the judgement of the

rest of

the world which has deemed UFO stories as paranormal tales.

It is not my opinion.  There would be nothing paranormal at all about
aliens.  They would be real, tangible creatures that simply evolved on
another world.  There is nothing paranormal about that.  It is certainly
true that anecdotal evidence of aliens visiting Earth has been lumped in
with that category, which is easy to understand considering the lack of
conclusive evidence, there would be nothing at all paranormal about real
aliens.