"The_Sage" <a.b@c.com> wrote in message
news:nf1sl0dhq7v7av33bu73q6gnqan173ciu1@4ax.com...

Reply to article by: "Kavik Kang" <Kavik_Kang@hotmail.com>

Yes, nothing I would qualify for evidence that ETs have visited us.  I

was a

little confused by the second to last last sentance.  There is evidence,
just not conclusive evidence.  Hudreds of thousands, if not millions of
witnesses is evidence.  The 5% of unexplained cases in both US and USSR

case

files is evidence.  Cases like Beligum '91 is evidence.  None of it
conclusive, but it is unreasonable to insist that there is no evidence at
all... which is exactly what many people do.

If the "evidence" is inconclusive, then it isn't evidence, it is

insignificant

trivia.

No, it's still evidence.  Anthoropology and Archeology both, for example,
have very little conclusive evidence to support their current beliefs.  The
vast majority of evidence in those fields is inconclusive.  And yet, it is
still evidence which supports the currently accepted conclusions.  What
consitutes "evidence" is not affected by the subject matter.  Inconclusive
evidence is still evidence.  It cannot be said that there is no evidence at
all for alien visitation, which is my only point.  That's always been my
only point, for nearly 20 years, it's unbelievable that anyone argues about
it.  My only claim here is that there is evidence for alien visitation, it's
not conclusive, but it is evidence.  This debate can never move forward
until that fact is established and accepted by both sides.  The most ardent
"Raving Lunatic Debunkers" insist that there is "not one shred of evidence",
which is clearly not the case.  The most ardent "Foaming True Believers"
insist that there is "conclusive evidence", both groups are equally wrong.
Until both sides of the debate accept these truths, this debate will never
move forward.

In science, what a witness allegedly observed is never as important as the
observer's report of what they believed they saw. The witness may report

they

saw an ET piloted flying saucer but a properly trained scientist will

understand

that the witness saw a distant speck of light on the horizon and reported

it as

an ET piloted flying saucer, rather than as a speck of light on the

horizon.

Anything other than a report of the speck of light is imagination and the

UFO

community has a very active imagination. While in a court of law the mere

words

of a witness would be acceptable, in a court of science mere words are

never

acceptable unless accompanied by physically corroborating evidence. That

is

considered hearsay and meresay, not evidence, with the exception of the

science

of psychology.

25,000 year old cave drawings and renesiance (I just know I spelled that
wrong:-) art containing objects that resemble modern day UFOs are not
hearsay.  Belgium '91, with hundreds of eyewitnesses and multiple radar
tracks is not hearsay.  Those are just two examples of such evidence.
Certainly inconclusive, and certainly debatable (which I'm sure someone is
about to prove), but it is evidence none-the-less.  For that matter,
anecdotal evidence is also evidence, not the best evidence, but it is
evidence.  Again, my only point is that evidence does exist.  That is an
undeniable fact, and yet so many seem ready to deny it.

You are asking me if a barbaric species would be interested in another

barbaric

species, and yes, barbaric species tend to be interested in other

barbaric

speices. But you are assuming that our species will forever remain

barbaric

rather than evolve as it has been and that is just not a reasonable

unspoken

assumption. I am reminded in this instance of a famous quote...

  "I would like to share a revelation that I've had, during my time

here. It

  came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that

you're

  not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet, instinctively

develops an

  equilibrium with it's surrounding environment, but you humans do not.

You

  move to an area and you multiply and multiply, until every natural

resource

  is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another

area. There

  is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do

you know

  what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this

planet; you

  are a plague and we are the cure" (Agent Smith, THE MATRIX, Warner

Brothers,

  1999)

And you assume that only a species so advanced that they would have no
interest in other alien cultures could ever find us.

Don't assume to know what I assume. You aren't even close to what I

claimed or

implied so that shoots down the rest of your argument here since it is

based on

a strawman...

It was exactly what you said.  You said that any alien race advanced enough
to find us would be uninterested in us.  I simply pointed out that in order
to reach the level you assume is necessary in that statement, they would
have had to have gone through earlier stages in which they did have an
interest in life on other worlds.  You are the only one building straw men
on this point.  Anyone can go back in the thread and see what was said.

That's pretty
advanced.  You'd have to have been around for a very long time to have

seen

and learned so much that you just had no new interest in newfound
civilizations.  You certainly would have had to have had an interest in

many

along the way, to reach that level of apathy.  It would seem that only

some

type of paranormal "transcendance" could make what you suggest a

realistic

possibility.

Obviously, a species intelligent enough to traverse light years of space

would

be a species that learned to not destroy itself and it's environment; a

species

that would not want to spread to another part of the galaxy like a

plague --

those are things WE humans would do if we could travel through space

today, but

that doesn't imply everyone else in the universe thinks like we do.

Who knows how "cheating Einstien" might work?  If it's something like a
"wormhole" our solar system could be the very first one a species found.
And any species that goes into space is very likely to spend at least the
early era of their time there seeking out life.  Finding "someone else

out

there" is very likely to be a nearly universal trait, if not the only
universal trait, of "interstellar civilization".  Even if it's not, at

least

some species would be "explorers".

Is that a fact or a fantasy? If it is a fact, please provide your

evidence. It

seems you are once again assuming that what we would do today if we could

go

into space is what every other species in the universe will do once they

can go

into space. I see no compelling reason for advanced life to act like we do
today. Most of all, I'm going by what we *actually* know rather than what
coulda, woulda, shoulda been. You can imagine all kinds of alternate

scenarios

that you want but imaginary is not the same thing as reality. You need

facts to

back up your stories, not imagination.

I don't have a story, nor is it my imagination.  To suggest that any species
would forge out into space, and then have no interest at all in life they
encountered is obviously rediculous.  A species could concievably advance to
a point that they might lose interest in investigating other forms of life,
but that would probably take thousands of years at the very least.
Certainly, during their earliest years of space travel, finding ET life
would be at the top of the list of any space-faring species.  It would have
been a primary motivation for going into space to begin with.  When someone
advances a theory that defies all logic, such as yours in which alien
species will forge out into space and yet have no interest at all in alien
life they encounter, it is up to that person to show why that would be.
It's not up to me to prove the obvious, it would be up to you to prove such
an unrealistic and nonsensical claim.  Your position makes no sense at all.

I've spent all my life looking for anything odd and while I have found

many

things that were odd, none of them were in the category of being

paranormal.

There is no such thing as the paranormal, it is all wishful thinking.

But there is nothing what-so-ever "paranormal" about aliens. They would

be

entirely normal. Simply another real, tangible species that had

developed

on another world. There isn't anything paranormal about that.

That is only your opinion but it does not reflect the judgement of the

rest of

the world which has deemed UFO stories as paranormal tales.

It is not my opinion.

You mostly definitely are resorting to opinion...

   "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by
   positive knowledge or proof"
   (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion&r=67)

Read more carefully.  It is not my opinion.  I said, twice now, that if
aliens exist there would be nothing paranormal about them.  Read it again.
If aliens exist, there would be nothing at all paranormal about them.  They
would be real, tangible creatures that simply evolved on another world.  The
phrase "would be" is the important part that you are missing.  They "would
be" real, they would not be paranormal.

There would be nothing paranormal at all about
aliens.  They would be real, tangible creatures that simply evolved on
another world.  There is nothing paranormal about that.  It is certainly
true that anecdotal evidence of aliens visiting Earth has been lumped in
with that category, which is easy to understand considering the lack of
conclusive evidence, there would be nothing at all paranormal about real
aliens.

Unless you can scientifically explain or mechanically reproduce any

alleged UFO

experience, it clearly falls under the definition for paranormal...

No, it doesn't.  There would be nothing paranormal about real aliens.  They
would be real creatures.  A ghost of an alien would be paranormal, an actual
alien would not be.  This isn't worth arguing about, since it is so obvious
to anyone who is being honest.