In article <mEJHf.87719$zt1.49104@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>, 
manic_mandy@hotmail.com says...

In news:dsn0qo$s3h$1@lust.ihug.co.nz,
Your Name Here=Harvey <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> typed:

In article <BHyHf.41515$Rw6.21899@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>,
manic_mandy@hotmail.com says...

In news:dslmr2$ehi$1@lust.ihug.co.nz,
Your Name Here=Harvey <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> typed:

In article <JzIGf.35529$494.32653@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
manic_mandy@hotmail.com says...

In news:dse7vn$h1i$1@lust.ihug.co.nz,
Your Name Here=Harvey <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> typed:

In past times in history - the Christians were as bad as the
Muslims or
worse with their fanatical beliefs, and have held the world back
from advancing forward - such as that of Galileo's ideas, which he
could not freely express,

I wouldn't deny that violence has been done in the name of
Chritianity, and Christianity has in some cases tried to hold back
progress by attemting to surpress ideas at varience with sriptural
teachings. Galileo is one and obvioisly a lot of Christian groups
are still ranting on about evolution.

But on the other hand it is difficult to seperate the development
and advances of Western society from the influence of Christianity
and although Christianity is not the only religion that has worked
to establish sophisticated societies. I don't think one could argue
Islam has encouraged much progress, considering Muslim societies
are entirely reliant on Western and indeed Far Eastern Technology.

I don't think it is solely the western world/countries that has
contributed towards the industrialisation and modernisation of this
world.

Actually the Industrial revolution first began in Britain with the
Introduction of steam in the late 18th Century and was mostly
powered by coal

In that every country has played it's part, and we borrow or steal
from other societies - key ideas. In mathematics, historians will
say that our numeric system came from... and that the zero from..
etc etc with key inventions too...

Well I wouldn't dispute that the Ancients may have had technologies
that were later forgotten.

There is that device referred to as the Antikythera mechanism which
was found in the Mediterranean sea, which was from a sunken ship of
Greek times, it was some gearing mechanism, and only through x-rays
could the whole of it could be seen.
The reconstruction of it, revealed that it showed planetary motions,
and was in fact the earliest computing device - knocking Babbage's
engine off the #1 spot. It has featured in 'Modern Marvel's -
Ancient Discoveries series, Part 1' and in the 'Xtreme Mysteries -
Ancient Discoveries' television programs. Now we have only to wait
until a second such device to be found, to show it was not a one off?
invention.

A lot of these things were one off inventions unfortunately. The problem is
technological advances rely heavily on communications. In some ways the
Industrial revolution could only have happened in a place like the UK which
is relatively small, and of course there had always been plenty of Roads
because the Romans built them. Which of course leads on to the other reason
it happened in the UK it was at the time the centre of an enormous empire
and there was a need to put telegraph poles and railways everywhere in order
to govern and control such a huge empire.

In that television program - it mentioned about the Odometer that the
Romans used to put milestones down on their roads - that this device
could not be reconstructed into a working model. da Vinci tried to solve
how did it work? But couldn't. Someone who did solve the riddle found out that 
the cogs used, had sharp points, instead of square teeth to the gearing.
You can download any kind of television programme you like, via file sharing 
programs such as eMule or Xolox, if you have a cheap broadband connection,
unlimited download option (I have one only at 256K speed - it usually takes
days of leaving your computer online, to download the one programme, so it's
best to download several together. I have been downloading various UFO 
programmes and ones about Free Energy are interesting too.) Having the
fastest broadband speed doesn't help because most downloads occur at very slow
broadband speeds.

Of course the legend of Atlantis is interesting because it does make sense
that a relatively small sea faring Island nation in the Atlantic that was
the centre of an empire could have developed in a similar way for exactly
the same reasons. But the seed had obviously not spread far enough and been
consolidated enough to sustain the catastrophic destruction of Atlantis
itself.

And all Islamic countries have embraced western technology and
development. They had no choice, I guess - same for any country not
wanting isolation
and the benefits of modern living (better health care and a better
standard
of living). Western technology isn't entirely western though.
We know that Asia has played a significant hand in technological
advances.

There doesn't seem to be a great deal of development in the Middle
East since the introduction of Islam

and you should know full well of the religious

wars Christianity was involved in --- and how it has decimated
indigenous
cultures when it invaded new territories where Christianity was
not present before.
Acts of violence has been made, in the name of Jesus - it may not
be in our most recent history, but nonetheless it should be
recognised.

Well yes I realise there was Slavery and people from the West
didn't go into these places to give away refrigerators and
Chevrolets But OTOH though disease and starvation have always
existed and many of these so called indigenous societies were
little more than savages, performing things like human sactifice
and eating their own children. Things that are now illegal in
every country of the World and it was the West that put a stop to
such things.

One form of slavery has changed from one form to another.
One set of injustices, swapped for another set.
Slavery and injustices still remain.

True

Should we be concerned about the minority Muslim fundamentalists?
at all? They are not the majority of the mainstream muslims.

Well that is true. I have Muslim friends myself and they are not
like the lunatics shown in the media.

It should be noted that the events of 9-11 is something we should
know the truth of - about it. That the official story of 9-11 does
not
add up to the facts about 9-11, and that the whole series of
events, that we are told, does not add up to the official story.
We are not told the truth about this so-called pivotal event in
recent history.

Well one thing I can tell you is some Mosques in the UK were under
surveillance a long time before 9/11 and in fact this has not only
been confirmed by the BBC I used to live a street down from a
Mosque in an end of terrace house with net curtains and could
observe activities in the street without detection. I noted there
were people hanging about in cars at certain times of the day and
there were shift changes one could practically set your watch by
and like one saw the same people in the same positions on a daily
basis even on weekends. At the time I came to the conclusion these
people were plain clothes Police MI5 etc I also pointed it out to
some of my friends (in case I was going Mad) what seemed to be
going on, and yes even some of my friends at least one of whom is
ex-security forces also noticed these activities and agreed with
my suspicions. Well actually they were plain clothes police it
wasn't paranoia we weren't seeing things and this has now more or
less been confirmed by something said by the BBC. Though best not
to say too much as to the location or what this was connected
with, because there are good reasons for such covert activities,
though they could be a bit more covert, bearing in mind people are
quite observant. :)

The truth can be evil - when we know exactly who are behind this
and that. They are the ones who manipulated the events all along.
I wonder if we will ever know?

I have taken a look at the conspiracy theories but when you
actually see what these extremist are like and have seen with your
own eyes the fact that some of these people have been kept under
survailence by the police for a decade or more. I do believe the
terrorists actually exist and were capable of perpetrating 9/11
and I'm not getting my information entirely from the media or the
Internet I have made my own observations. --
Amanda

There are definitely information about the whole 9-11 official
story, that does not add up, particularly the Pentagon strike being
not what we
are told about it.
One excellent video about it, summing it up, is Barrie Zwicker's
"The Great Conspiracy - The 9-11 News Special You Never Saw"
presents a history of the US Government past conspiracies and
coverups, leading up
to 9-11, to show that the US Government does resort to lying and
misleading
the public, when it suits them.
A key note about the Twin Towers, is how the US Government would not
allow independent engineers/analysts onto the twin towers site, to
inspect the debris, and how the debris was always off limits to
them. There was never an open investigation into the whole 9-11
incident. No independent studies were allowed.
There is a key point mentioned, that the fire caused by the jet fuel
burning was not enough to cause the collapse of the twin towers, at
the steel columns.

Terrorists do exist strangely enough. My main problem with the
conspiracy theories is there would have been no need, and secondly
if it had been staged it would have been a lot more convincing. The
Pentagon is perhaps the most odd incident the hole did look to
small, that said planes are made of aluminium and aluminium burns
under intense heat. The wings would have been completely vaporised
on impact because the fuel is stored in the wings and it would have
consumed the wings in a fireball in seconds. Actually before the
Falklands war Warships were being made of Aluminium, until it was
realised that once they catch fire they simply melt and offered no
defence against Exocet missiles. --

Yeah well, the US Government has resorted to it's own brand of covert
terrorism when it has suited them.
Not being a structural engineer or an explosive expert - I can't form
an opinion over whether the Twin Towers could have withstood the
burning
jet fuel longer than it did, or know whether it was blown up to cause
the collapse of the buildings - this is hard to believe in itself.
But so is the claim that the Israelis who normally worked in the Twin
Towers were given a telephone warning not to turn up at work that
fateful day, strongly hinting that the Israeli intelligence were
involved?
You have only to remember that France thought nothing of bombing the
Rainbow Warrior in Auckland, New Zealand - to know this is not so
fanciful to contemplate.
Barrie Zwicker did point out however, that George Bush lied - when he
said that he saw it on the news, at the time - when in fact it was
shown, until the next day, regarding the plane striking the building.
And if he was told by an aide, when he was visiting a primary school

Well actually here in the UK  the events of 9/11 were shown live on BBC News
24 and it all happened around lunch time because Western Europe is 5 to 6
hours ahead of NY. Actually I don't have a Television myself but I was still
able to watch the events of 9/11 unfold live on a 150k streaming live news
video feed on the BBC website. I therefore saw the second plane hit within
seconds of the actual event and I also saw the first tower collapse more or
less as it happened (accounting for satellite delay of course)

It would have been possible for George Bush to have seen the events in the
news because they were seen live across Europe and indeed the Middle East as
well. Of course half the American people would have still been in bed
because the West Coast is 4 hours behind NY. But actually most of the rest
of the World saw 9/11 as it happened and many of us here knew about it
before George Bush was actually informed. It was probably the most shocking
news event I have ever seen.

You have to be realistic. That the US Government has spent millions on
a secure radar network, which says it can track foreign objects in it's
airspace - and in todays electronic world, that must mean it can track
it's domestic air traffic even more easily.
What is little known about 9-11 is that there were simulation exercises
going on with the military at that time, which suggest even more the whole
9-11 was rigged by the US government. And when someone rung up the authorities
about this 9-11 event, they asked "Real World or simulation?" It is mentioned
in detail in that 9-11 news that you never saw.
A reasonable person cannot believe that the US President got the immediate
news via the television news feed. Why do they have a military? And their
security forces for? You can't say they don't have a fast and efficient
communications system, that keeps track of everything.

why didn't he excuse himself, to deal with this catastrophe of the
highest order, but no, he continued on with reading from a children's
book, as
if nothing momentous had just happened.

True, but shock is like that, I don't think anyone can take in and
assimilate shocking events like 9/11 in the first second of being told or
seeing it happen. I don't think George Bush's immediate reaction was in the
slightest bit unusual under the circumstances. You can look at something
like that and be so over awed by it you think it's all fantasy and you might
even laugh, but when the shock actually hits it makes you cry.

What was going through President Bush's mind, as he was reading a
children's story to children?
Maybe he wasn't playing dumb, and he was really dumb or struck dumb?
After his aide gave him some unexpected news?
He appears to be more of a puppet, than a player in the events.

I think most of the conspiracy theories are being spread by traitors and
Islamic-Fascist apologists, it's called revisionism and of course people try
to do it in regard to the Holocaust as well. Such people are traitors.
-- 
Amanda

Conspiracy theories will only take hold, if there is some substance and
reason to them. If they add up to something sensible.
If Kuwait had no oil - the first gulf war would not have happened...
Iraq would not have been invaded, if they had no oil.
Just look at Afghanistan - which has nothing for the US to profit from,
and how long did it take before they came to the aid of that country.
If there is no truth to the conspiracy theories, there would be no fuel
for them to burn with.

Harvey