In news:1143621529.197289.242130@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,
ianparker2@gmail.com <ianparker2@gmail.com> typed:

I'm referring to the very outset of such a project, because in the
beginning even though you would most likely have sufficient
resources on the moon you couldn't have self replicating machines
without mining and heavy industry in place. If you didn't establish
an industrial and manufacturing base, they wouldn't be able to self
replicate and would have to transported from earth either
pre-assembled or in flatpack form, but flatpack items weigh as much
as assembled items.

Of couse a flatpack weighs as much as the assembled items. My point is
that a flatpack solves the AI issues, not weight od seed issues. The
assembly shows an ubnderstansing of CAD/CAM and Engineering Phsics. It
opens up a wide range of processes.

I sometimes feel that we are used to large scale processes, we are
used to blast furnaces weighing 100 tonnes or so. In fact extraction
need not be that weight intensive. We would probably extract from the
Moon using electrochemical processes where unit size would be a lot
smaller.

High temperatures, if required, would be attained using mirors. The
size of a blast furnace is fixed by its need to retain heat.

That's true I suppose, and that affects costs. I dare say there must be an
optimum size for something like a blast furnace which keeps unit costs to a
minimum. Too small and unit costs would be too high for it to be profitable.
However that wouldn't be an issue if the steel were going to be used within
a self replicating system.

Well I don't think Communism works. But I don't think it's Communism
or Capitalism that's the problem. I think negative aspects of human
nature which cause the problems.

If you are saying that lack of imagination is what is holding us back
I will agree with you. Marxism as I have shown does enshrine "lack of
imagination" into a dogma.

The question of the extent to which belief in fact disctates the route
society takes is an interesting one. If you believe someting wrong you
have the choice either.

1) Believe at different levels or
2) Go under.

Lenin I think knew deep down that Marxism was fundamentally flawed, it
is a fact that no Soviet leader after Stalin believed in it. Being a
politician he never had the courage to admit he was wrong and he
condemned the whole Soviet Union to stagnation.

Well I think Russia's problems go back a lot further than Communism and I
think a lot of that has to do with the fact it's a huge country containing a
very diverse range of ethnicity. Under the Tsars it was an oppressive and
ailing empire in any case.

But far from stagnate Russia, in some areas the communists were very
successful. Well although Russia had financial help from the US in WWII it
still doesn't diminish the fact they moved practically their entire
industrial base to Siberia, turned out thousands of Tanks, Aeroplanes and
Guns and turned the tide against Nazi Germany. It's also quite amazing they
managed to build so many nuclear reactors after WW11, develop their own
Nuclear bomb ICBMs and of course beat the Americans into space.

I know what you mean in some ways, but some of the things achieved in Soviet
Russia were nothing short of miraculous.

I am in fact British so this does nor really concern me. America is
going to have to come to terms with the fact that Intelligent Design
is wrong. The way in which it affects society may be complex. I
mentioned it in connection with VN machines for this reason. If life
arose in a warm little pond. I think that the WLP was a chemical
system not a fully developed cell. Chemicals from the WLP formed
themselves into a self replicating system which eventually produced
life as we know it today. If a WLP could arise spontaneusly it
follows that a self replicating sytem is not that complicated. I
believe a VN machine is within reach of current technology.

Well it's impossible to separate intelligence from evolution completely, or
say it has no part in evolution. In fact there are animals that exist on
Earth that would not have come into being without human involvement in their
genetic development through selective breeding, and since those animals
perform specific functions and are entirely reliant on human beings for
their existence as a species some aspects of Intelligent Design are a proven
fact. Well there are no Wild Friesian Cows, neither are there wild chickens,
There are hundreds of different breeds of Dog. And of course we mustn't
forget Felix Domesticus. ID albeit human Intelligence has played a part in
the development and evolution of a vast array of animals.

Interesting enough I was reading an article the other day which suggested
there are indications that Cheeters are genetically engineered, and the
smoking gun is apparently they possess genetic material derived from dogs.
Well I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it means someone was
genetically engineering animals on this planet a long time ago. Because it
is unlikely such a hybrid species would occur naturally in nature, and
apparently Cheeters do have breeding problems like many hybrid species.
Pandas are perhaps another oddity.

Of course as we unravel the DNA of different species I dare say this will
uncover a lot of mysteries about the origins of some species which may lead
to conclusions that either we are not alone, or human history on this planet
goes back much further than mainstream science currently accepts

Now suppose these statements are read and believed in India and China
- to a greater or lesser extent in Europe, but NOT in the States (5%
of graduates in science/Engineering as against over 50% in Asia) what
do you think the consequences are likely to be.

The answer to Tee shirts and Trainers is more robotics, it is the ONLY
answer. In fact with robotics and local production you have a lead
time in the marketing of fashion. Suppose however Tee shirt land gets
a lead in robotics. The US will then be finished. Britain together
with the rest of Europe would then have to face the new realities.

Well at some point I would think the Far Eastern economies are going to
develop to the point where they make machines to do all the manufacturing
work, and the Western economies are going to be totally reliant on the Far
East for manufacturing (we already are). The fact that the Far Eastern
economies can then dictate the prices. The Western economies will collapse.
-- 
Amanda