Reply to article by: "Sir Arthur CB Wholeflaffers ASA" <science@zzz.com>
Date written: 9 Apr 2006 16:41:24 -0700
MsgID:<1144626084.908319.205650@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

You Don't Have To 'Believe' In UFOs Any Longer By James Neff
<webmaster@sightings.com>  5/28/00

One might 'believe' in fire-breathing dragons or fairies ... yet, there
is no evidence whatever that either of these exist. However, one need
only look at the facts now in evidence to see that 'flying saucers'
(not merely "unidentified flying objects") do, indeed, exist.

UFOs exist. Flying saucers do not.

>From these three sources alone, there exists undeniable proof of the
'flying saucer.'

UFOs have entered practically every 'sensitive' international airspace,
been tracked on uncountable

That is evidence of UFOs, not flying saucers.

civilian and military radars, been pursued by the finest and most
advanced flying machines on the
planet, eye-witnessed by our best trained pilots, even fired upon (or
so attempted) by pilots dating
all the way back to reports from WWI aviators over England. Our
visitors have been tracked at speeds exceeding all known propulsion or
contemporary technology and fully-defying the laws of *our* physics.

That is evidence of UFOs, not 'visitors'.

Flying Saucers have on scores of occasions brought military units,
including our nuclear forces, to full alert and then engaged those
forces in what appear to be tests of our technological capacity. Flying
Saucers of gargantuan size have been seen at close range by both
civilian and military professionals and verified by radar...both ground
and airborne. Some would even say our visitors have taunted and played
with our military...the reports of incursions into our SAC bases being
particularly extraordinary.

That is evidence of UFOs, not flying saucers.

Millions of dollars are spent every year by air force units around the
world from every advanced
nation to intercept these aerial interlopers. Countries do not spend
that kind of money chasing
Venus, 'heat inversions' or entertaining myths. To suggest so is simply
preposterous. The information and data, mountains of it, from these
civilian and military aviation and defense specialists regarding the
UFO match or exceed the information we have from "less than expert"
civilian eyewitnesses of UFOs, and only serves to validate and support
public accounts of UFOs and/or interactions with them. We accept
without reservation the existence of atomic and subatomic
particles which only a privileged handful of experts in that field of
study have ever 'seen' with the most advanced special instrumentation.

That is evidence of UFOs, not flying saucers.

Granted, there is far more 'scientific' data and knowledge of atomic
and subatomic particles than
exists for flying saucers -- but data is data, and evidence is evidence
-- and we have no trouble in trusting and being dependent upon the
experiences and veracity of the physicists and scientists
involved. We accept the reality of these all but invisible atomic and
sub-atomic structures with no
hesitation. And yet with the flying saucer, we are not dealing with
'invisibles' at all. At best, one must define the flying saucer as
transitory, difficult and evasive -- but nonetheless, a real part of
our physical universe. Unlike the atomic particle which is governed by
laws already understood, or well on the way to being understood within
the sheer mechanics of the universe itself and its conditions and
measures, the UFO has behind it an intelligence of its own. We can no
more easily reach out and snatch a flying saucer for examination than
we can ball lightning... yet, both exist. (There is strong indication
our military has had examples of UFO technology ...and its flight
crews...for more than a half century, but that is another subject
altogether).

The only data you have cited gives us far more evidence of UFOs than of flying
saucers.

It does appear that the U.S. military has developed craft with similar
appearance and capabilities as
some 'flying saucers' (as reported by many reasonable and credible
individuals).

Show me.

However,
history shows us that the flying saucer has been coming and going on
planet earth for generations,
and centuries, which rules out the idea that all flying saucers are
manmade craft of a clandestine
technology.

The only thing history shows us is that UFOs exist, but flying saucers have yet
to appear.

Considering these realities, our language regarding UFOs
should cease, immediately, to reflect the elements of myth, legend or
fantasy, and fully embrace its definitive reality, helping to bring in
a new cultural era regarding the UFO. We must each arm ourselves with
these most primary facts when dealing with those uneducated, prepared
to give a rational defense of the subject. There is absolutely no
reason to ever feel awkward about the issue simply because others are
poorly-educated about the facts. And educating them at every
opportunity is paramount. The reality of
UFOs is such that its implications require every human being to become
as aware of it as their
individual mental and emotional limits will allow. Our place in the
universe is likely to be defined
by this very subject, be it a truth we are ready to receive or a lie we
are miserably destined to
suffer.

Either way, we don't "believe" in UFOs. No faith is required. It is not
a religion or occult pseudo
science. It is a reality. What we do with that reality is now squarely
on the table.

Of course believing in UFOs is reality. It is the blind faith belief in
imaginary flying saucers that is a religion or occult pseudo-science.

A Rebuttal by Jim Foreman; Editor, The Skeptic Report
His rebuttal is published as follows...

<snipped>

I love a skeptic, and consider myself one. A big one. It takes a lot to
convince me of anything. I'm
not even sure you are real, Jim :) You write:

"This article basically extols the virtues of UFO worship, though he
devotes the article to damning that anyone could "believe" in UFOs at all.

God forbid ANYONE "worships" UFOs as you claim I have encouraged! My
entire point is that the UFO is undeserving of such mentality...
because of the weight of evidence.

The fact is, UFOs exist. It is flying saucers that are make believe.

Now, allow me to defend myself only on two points, the rest of which
I'll leave to the readers to
evaluate using that wonderful gray matter between their ears. My
admonition: BE SKEPTICAL. That's the entire point. EDUCATE yourself on
the facts. Once the facts are in evidence, you will come to the same
conclusion. Either that, or, turn in denial and ignore the truth.

I am skeptical that anyone who uses the gray matter between their ears would
come to the same conclusion as you and I am skeptical that your blind belief in
UFOs is the truth.

(1) I make it very clear that we have in no way defined the ORIGINS of
the UFO; this has NOT been verified or proven -- admittedly it is
entirely speculative that they are "alien" craft from other
planets or 'outer space'. But what I DO say is that since these craft
have been recorded historically
dating far beyond our own industrial revolution, much less the
invention of manned flight, we can
surmise that these are not all "ours" (ie, man made craft). You
immediately debunk this idea.

I am immediately skeptical of your claim that UFOs are alien craft or flying
saucers because there is absolutely no evidence that they are anything but UFOs.

Well,
history is on my side here. Anyone can crack a Bible and read about
Ezekiel's UFO experience...

Ezekiel is not history but religion.

anyone can read the Upanishads of the Hindu's and read about 'air cars'
powered by an energy source called 'sidis'... and if one really wants
to educate oneself on the true history of UFOs, you
can read quite a lot in this excellent NIGHTWATCH article entitled
"UFOs Through The Ages...A
Timeline."

THe Upanishads are not history but religion.

Because human beings have been describing this same
phenomena for so many centuries persuades me that the phenomena is at
the very least not a production of modern technology. It remains to
determine what they are, where they come from, etc. So we are in
agreement -- your first statement is:

Humans beings have been describing many other beliefs for thousands of years in
the form of religion, not objective observation.

"OK, we'll grant that UFOs (in this, we mean Unidentified Flying
Objects) do exist. There are strange things in the sky that people see
and then report to their local branch of MUFON. Maybe these objects are
vehicles, or are at least unnatural phenomena built by intelligent
species."

(2) My second point is to rise to your challenge of proof that the
military/air forces around the world spend millions of dollars dealing
with the UFO phenomena. These events are on record. Stanton Friedman
and many other researchers have amassed such data, and this is nothing
new or earthshaking (to the UFO educated). Iraqi & Israeli Air Force,
as well as the French government, have been entirely open about their
UFO encounters. Several of our own astronauts have openly told about
their encounters with UFOs when in the Air Force. Major Donald E. Kehoe
spent the latter part of his life documenting such cases provoked by
personal experience.

All those records indicate is that somone saw a UFO and not a flying saucer.

Filer's Files frequently and archivally have
records of such events.

Filer's Files only parrots whatever stories it finds or is emailed. No research
into the validity of the storytales is routinely, if ever, done.

These aren't buried someplace! They've been
known to anyone wanting to learn about it for years. Do you have any
idea how much it costs to send your best fighters after a radar
detected interloper traveling at 3000 mph over sensitive airspace (only
to close in on it and discover it's not a missile, but a silver disc
with brilliant lights playing cat and mouse)? Any person in the air
force will confirm this fact: it costs millions, even if it only
happens a few times a year. This website is overflowing with these
cases and accounts, as are many others. The documentation is openly
available. The witnesses, expert. The accounts, verified.

It costs millions of dollars to chase UFOs but zero dollars to chase things that
have never been confirmed to exist, ie -- flying saucers.

I will not defend the idea that UFOs are proven to be alien spacecraft.
I don't know what they are. I simply know they 'ARE' and that
historically the evidence for their existence reveals that, whatever
their origin, it is entirely unrelated to our own technological status
here on earth.

Illusions, delusions, and hallucinations *ARE* entirely unrelated to our own
technological status here on Earth.

Hence, it is not a "belief" system. It is a rational
assembly of facts with a reasonable conclusion. Flying Saucers
(and other shapes and forms of this same aerial phenomena) EXIST. They
being of extraterrestrial origin is, indeed, a speculation; as is, a
metaphysical conclusion; as is a phenomenon of nature. My personal
speculation, based on the evidence, is that these are craft with
intelligent occupants and/or guided by intelligent means which is not
human; there is ample evidence of intelligent control behind these
devices.

Since the only evidence you have for flying saucers are phenomenon that you do
not know and cannot be identified as flying saucers, it is nothing but a belief
system.

As I said, what we do with this reality is squarely on the table. I
appreciate your skeptical prodding's. Keeps me on my toes :)

The only thing skeptical prodding does is allow you to practice blind faith
belief by denying the facts.

Andreas Klokkaris <andre@spidernet.com.cy> added:

Hm...I wouldn't bet on it. Believe me I've tried it in the past with
posts similar to the one you posted. Debunkers don't seem to have the
word shame (or defeat) in their vocabulary. They are weird beings,
really. My advice: Ignore them until they rot! Ha-ha

Anytime anyone says something you don't want to hear, ignore them. That is what
blind faith belief requires one to do in order to remain blind.

Sir Arthur Wholeflaffer A.S.A. again:

Now we know the five stages of the UFO debunker:
anger, denial, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Give me examples of each then.

Andreas Klokkaris <andre@spidernet.com.cy> wrote:

Well said, but you can sum it all up with the following cutie that's
been around the net lately:
"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it
is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being  -- Arthur
Schopenhauer

Here is another one: "All falsehood pass through three stages: First it is
accepted without question. Second, any attempt to refute it is violently denied
or ignored. Third, it is ridiculed" -- The Sage

The Sage

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"Little minds are interested in the extraordinary; great
minds in the commonplace"
  -- Elbert Hubbard, ROYCROFT DICTIONARY AND BOOK OF EPIGRAMS
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