Subject: Re: SETI & the Religions of Extraterrestrials
From: "mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com>
Date: 12/08/2006, 20:55
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo


Harvey@NZ wrote:
"mike3" <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1155369604.853779.132990@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


Carl Sagan wrote:
SETI and the Religions of Extraterrestrials
O give ye praise Europans
by Jill Tarter

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 20,
Number 3.

The statement that extraterrestrial intelligence exists or doesn't
can have the parallel statement that God exists or doesn't. Some
people say there's already sufficient evidence of existence for both.
If you set aside abductions and miracles, it's true that the absence
of evidence is not evidence of absence for either. However, if and
when one ever detects evidence of an extraterrestrial intelligence,
it will break the symmetry of these two statements and, in fact, that
evidence will be inconsistent with the existence of God or at least
organized religions. It's all about space and all about time.
Technological civilizations cannot be co-located-that is they can't
be close to us in space and in time-unless on the average such
technological civilizations are long-lived. I'm not talking about 100
years or 1,000 years. I'm talking about the age of stars or galaxies.
Let me illustrate that with the Drake Equation, which in fact I
hardly ever use. An equation is nothing more than a lovely way to
organize our ignorance. When you write an equation somebody expects
you to calculate an answer. It's impossible. There is no answer to
this equation except by observation and experiment.
The Drake Equation says the number of civilizations in the Milky Way
Galaxy with whom we could currently communicate can be estimated by
taking the average rate of star formation in the Milky Way Galaxy-and
really here we mean stars similar to our own sun that live long
enough for evolution to be possible (if evolution elsewhere takes as
long as it did on this planet)-by the fraction of stars that have
planets. We now know about extra-solar planets-the number is 40, and
counting. The equipment that we have on telescopes today is best at
finding only very massive planets with very short-period orbits.
Maybe ten years ago somebody would have bet that there were none.
But, we still do not have instruments with sufficient precision to
find other planets. So, we know something about extra-solar planets,
but not really a whole lot, particularly nothing yet about the number
of earthlike planets in an average solar system.
Now we get into real speculation. What is the fraction of all
earthlike planets out there on which life begins? And of that
fraction of life-starts, how many ever develop an intelligence that
we would recognize? And of the intelligent species out there, how
many of them develop a civilization and a communicative technology
that can be sensed over the distances between the stars? And last,
how long does that civilization and that communication last? Given
all we know and all we really don't know, this equation degenerates
to N is equal to or less than L. To be completely accurate, we can
say that N is much, much less than L.
We can say the number of communicative civilizations in our galaxy
currently is less than their age in years. Now I consider that the
Milky Way Galaxy is very old and very large-10 billion years old,
100,000 light-years across. We live out here in the boondocks. It
contains 400 billion stars, about a quarter of which, 100 billion,
are similar to the sun. Let me calculate how many stars I would have
to search to find one intelligent civilization. And then, what
distance would I have to go out to search that many stars in the
Milky Way Galaxy?
We have had communicative technology for about 100 years. If it's
typical, I have to search about four billion stars to find one other
intelligence. And that means that I would have to search almost
10,000 light-years, throughout our galaxy-10% of the distance across
the galaxy. Suppose that the right age is something like 13,000 or
15,000, the amount of time we've had civilization so far. Then it's 1
in 30 million stars and I'll find one within 1,700 light-years. If
civilizations last a million years, then I only have to search
400,000, and I'll find one with 430 light-years. And if civilizations
last 400 million years, then 1 in a 1,000 will be enough. And they
will be within 50, 60, 70 light-years.
That 1 in 1,000 is currently where the most sensitive SETI searches
are operating. For them to succeed, for terrestrial, primitive
technology to find an extraterrestrial intelligence, means that they
are going to be very old. So near-term success implies that the
technology that we detect will be much older than our own. Ultimate
success we think out in generations. You can't necessarily draw the
same conclusion. Therefore it has to be possible to survive the kind
of state we find ourselves in today-our technological infancy-without
doing ourselves and our planet in. Such extreme longevity is totally
inconsistent with organized religion as we know it. I'll remind you
that men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do
it from religious conviction. Put another way, in general, bad people
do evil things; good people do good things. But, it takes religion to
make a good person do something really bad.
Organized religion is one of our greatest threats to survival. Across
the spectrum of religions we have today, one of the most common
elements is some form of prayer. Ambrose Bierce defined "to pray" as:
"To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a
single petitioner confessedly unworthy." That frame of mind-a
willingness to set aside the laws of the universe in favor of some
higher authority-basically lets one off scot free. It allows
individuals to evade the consequences of their actions, including the
destruction of species and habitats.
Organized religion is an invention not only of our intellect but
possible other intellects. H.L. Mencken said: "The most common of all
follies is to believe passionately about the palpably not true. It's
the chief occupation of mankind." Steven Pinker tells us that the way
evolution shaped human intelligence and the mind was to create a
system of modules designed to figure out how the world works. When
you're starting out you haven't figured out a whole lot yet.
Nonliterate peoples routinely, therefore, invent ghosts that they
bribe for good weather. And, they grant powers to ordinary objects.
They don't invent totally different objects; they take the ordinary
and make them more powerful.
So, organized religion is an invention of the mind, as envisioned by
Steven Pinker. God is our own invention. If we're going to survive or
turn into a long-lived technological civilization, organized religion
needs to be outgrown. Religious wars traditionally have had secular
cessations. Somebody imposes a treaty, but the conflicts really never
end. There are some really horrific examples.
The only possible solution I can see to outgrowing religion as we
know it today with its sects and denominations is the development of
a universal religion with no deviations, no
differentiations-absolutely global and compelling for all. Such a
religion might be able to coexist for a long time with technological
development without precipitating the worst of human tendencies.
If that development is possible for any civilization, then I would
speculate that, if and when we ever get a message, it's going to be a
missionary appeal to try to convert us all. And, on the other hand,
if we get a message and it's secular in nature, I think that says
that they have no organized religion-that they've outgrown it.
--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/
http://www.secularhumanism.org/
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/
http://www.boudillion.com/lam/lam.htm

I disagree. Proving that aliens exist does not disprove the existence
of God. To me, it actually confirms it -- it shows that life cannot be
by
simple accident, it shows there is something greater -- something
bigger -- than our Universe. It shows an order, built into the
Universe

itself, _built_ right into the laws that make it up, that the
evolution of
life is not strictly driven by random accidents, but by something
greater. To me, that's enough proof that the Universe had to have
been created by, well, God! Although probably not what a literal
interpretation of the Bible or somesuch suggests, as that is not
consistent with observation, AND those texts do not proclaim to be
literal, either. (Genesis = a moral story, by the way, and the moral
is

the important thing. It needs to bear _no resemblance_ to history.)

And, on the contrary, religion does not make people do bad things.
There are people out there who have NO religious beliefs whatsover
that have committed horrible, terrible crimes. It's what people _do_
with religion that determines this. If one reads religious texts, it
is

seen that they condemn evil. The fact that "religious" people ignore
their own texts shows they have set up their own religion that is
separate from those texts, and not part of them. If the texts are
from God, this other religion is not, and therefore they aren't
following the word of God!!!!

HOWEVER, that does _not_ mean that some alien civilization will
not have religion. Religion, if followed _correctly_, actually
promotes

good, and not evil. Alien civilizations might very well have religion.
If they do, it's almost certain it's being done "right".

The way to stop fighting is not to get rid of religion, but to correct
it,
to interpret and apply the _moral lessons_ of the texts _correctly_.
If

that was done, religion would actually benefit things. Religion, done
right, provides personal moral and spiritual teachings, things to be
applied on a _personal_ level. Morals are for personal development,
to make people better.

So, summed up: the questions of "does alien life exist" and "does
God exist" may be connected, but not in the way you think. Proving
the existence of alien life would *add* more weight to the idea that
God exists, and not remove it.



Earth's religions are particularly screwed up.
ie. Judaism, Christianity and Islam, particularly are.


But that's because people have distorted them, corrupted them.
Their original teachings condemn what's being done, but that
message has been lost from them over 2000 years of gradual
corruption, reinterpretation, dogma, etc. WE screwed them up.

This sums up what the ETs would teach us...
http://www.avilabooks.com/Jmmanuel1.htm
The intro is here
http://www.avilabooks.com/Jmmanuel.htm

There is a story that some visiting ETs were appreciative of
Christianity, so much so they took it back to their home planet,
and it simply started up wars there, and was then banned.


Well, Christianity _originally_ was not like it is now. It has been
corrupted, and that's why it's that way. If it did start wars (and
I don't know this, this is anecdote, so I'm not going to dogmatically
take it as "truth".), then it's because WE have corrupted it. The
original message is gone.

I think someone mentioned that the aliens believe in the universe
being God. To that effect.

Note - the above material plainly says that the origin of God,
was that of an ET ruler who wanted worshipping.
He appeared to be a God too - was a giant and lived for a couple
of thousand years, his offspring who succeeded him, also lived
for a long time - this may account for the different names for God
in the Bible.

All gods on Earth, were ETs. Full stop.
For every culture.


Then where do you believe the universe originated? What began it?
God has to exist. Who created the entire universe? Where did these
aliens originate from? The Universe. Where did the Universe originate
from? uhh... uhhh... uhhhh...

Harvey