dre <v> wrote in news:45011b50$0$98237$dbd41001@news.wanadoo.nl:

Harvey@NZ schreef:

riplin@Azonic.co.nz wrote in news:1157574396.742408.283950
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Harvey@NZ wrote:

There is a vast body of information regarding UFOs and aliens.

There is a vast body of [information, misinformation, fiction, lies,
misidentity]. The problem is that for any particular piece it is
impossible to tell which of these it is.

I think that it (the data) exists at all, is a miracle in itself.
Of course, it is the information which is detailed and concrete
that is almost impossible to deny, and when this mounts up -
over the years, and in numbers --- you simply cannot discount it.

religion claims the same,look at the world ,it's 
-impossible-  to say it  isn't created by god...

if there are so many facts supporting the visiting 
aliens than it must be reproducable and verifiable.
fuzzy pictures and witnesses are not enough to 
make a sound judgement.

There is enough evidence out there - but maybe we'll have to
set a time limit, so that faking can be ruled out?
So that home computers and photoshop, etc cannot be in use...

The other consideration that fuzzes the issue, is that of
'terrestrial' UFOs, which are not extraterrestrial flying objects.
I don't know what the percentage would be of UEFO vs UTFOs.
 

As a non-believer - do you say that all of the above does not
exist? ie. have no validity or genuiness to them?
You already have the giving in of scientists who say, that life
must exist elsewhere in the universe, galaxy, etc etc.
Chances are there ARE civilisations older than ours, more
technologically advanced than ours - they exist. FACT.

You have a strange idea about what a 'fact' is.  It is a fact that
many have used _statistics_  to claim various things about the
_likelyhood_ of life elsewhere and the likelyhood of civilisation
and technology, but it is _not_ a 'fact' that this is anymore that a
statistical claim. 

The fact is that we are lied to all the time - by all the various
academics and authorities (re: establishments) we have.
Name all the fields we have, as regards knowledge - and they are not
the authoritive persons/etc that hold that knowledge.
You know already that governments lie to us - the same can be
said of other authoritives.

because you believe in aliens you think 
automaticly the governments hides something,some 
say the us has allready a saucer,others say they 
have one but can't fly it..they have bodies but 
every film about it is a hoax..how convincing..
the aliens are hiding themselves i guess...the 
state don't need too do it,anyway... believers see 
evidence everywhere so why claim the state is 
hiding something anyway?
tons of evidence but never they land at the 
whitehouse or even crash on it...

Oh, the governments lie to us, when it suits them.
Even secrets from WWII are still being kept.
Read Nick Cook's "The Hunt for Zero Point" in which the
greater portion of the book is about WWII secrets.

Why would you think that an intelligent extra-terrestrial
species would automatically land on the White House lawn?
Given that the US is hardly a world leader.
They are certainly not on the side of truth and justice,
etc.
There was the UFO flap over Washington in the 50s' that is
the closest to what you requested.
 

There is also no evidence that even if some civilisation spent
millions of years attempting to travel the universe that they ever
could overcome the laws of nature as we know them and actually do
so. 

You do not even take into account our recent history and developments
to see how fast our own progress has been, and how it hasn't slowed
down - or do you simply ignore the computer you're using and all
the other technology developments as to leading nowhere?

that's the evidence aliens must excist?

If you really think about it? Knowledge is a foregoing work in progress.
Therefore to authoritively say - 'Oh, there is no life elsewhere
in the universe, etc etc and Earth is the only living planet with
intelligent life, etc etc' is the most pig-headed statement that
ever was. That no one else can master the art of intergalactic
space travel, etc etc because we haven't done that yet, is about
as dumb a claim and mindset.
It would be fairer to say - that life must exist elsewhere in the
universe, especially when we now know that life does exist underwater
at great depths, near underwater volcanoes vents.
That where a suitable environment exists - life is likely to form there.
What happens here, happens elsewhere.
It's a simple observation.
 

You have only to screen the vast body of information of UFOs/aliens
into categories of being real and genuine, or misidentified, misled
etc.

Exactly.  And when that is done there are none that get put in the
'real' basket.

I think the question is more along the lines of..
Do you limit your imagination --- or do you unleash it to
engage in future possibilities, that are possible today.

Exactly, it is all in your imagination.

The skeptic limits their imagination, to what they can hold in their
hand. 

I don't say believe in any nilly willy story about aliens and UFOs,
etc, but just examine the various cases to see there must be
something to them - and it is because secrets are kept, and
authorities, establishments and governments etc withhold their
information from the public - that the public is forced to believe
UFOs don't exist, etc etc. 

ad-hoc thinking,believers are very good at 
this,they don't show the aliens so they are hiding 
and lying..
the fact that clinton jumped out of his skin by 
claiming life was found on mars tells me a 
completely different story,
it was only a very small dead worm but hey...great pr!
imagine the pr and power they can have by using 
all that knowledge,but that is explained away by 
the belief that the oil industry don't want to use 
the technology because they would loose trillions 
of dollars...adhoc thinking again...
that they can use it and make much more profit is 
regarded as stupid...stupid debunkers eh?

The term of the thinking can be left up to the individual.
Some one else may not view it as ad-hoc thinking, but
just using simple deductive reasoning, in other words
plain common sense.
Governments, instituations, authorities, etc are run by men,
who are human, therefore they have their own motives and
reasoning. They are still selfish individuals who look out
for themselves first and foremost. Power corrupts absolutely,
and absolute power corrupts.
This is all too evident in the history of religion and of the
history of the world, especially where leaders are concerned.
They have an ego, don't they? An especially big one.
A person in a position of power, wishes to maintain their
position, and to not let go of their power. Just witness
the recent Tony Blair news - of course, he doesn't want to go.
Witness the recent Australian Prime Minister scandal - in which
he supposedly said to his deputy years ago, I'll step down after
a certain number of terms, and then you can take over...

Conspiracies forced upon the public work, because they get repeated
over and over - but simple logic tells us, there must be life
elsewhere, therefore genuine UFOs (and aliens) exist.

life elsewhere does not mean they are visiting us...
and yes they MUST excist somewhere in the 
universe,intelligent or not.

Ummm, they COULD have visited us, and maybe they DID.
As a lot of history says, ETs have visited us, bringing to us
the knowledge of civilisation.
But of course, the skeptic doesn't believe in Gods of the Ancient
past, being ETs. Heaven too betseys that would be ad-hoc thinking
wouldn't it?
The irony is, a lot of science fiction and space fantasy,
could well be true and part of our history - and our history
(taught in schools, etc etc) just a load of fiction, made up
of incomplete facts.
 

Information is power, that is why the secret has been kept and
maintained. To limit the imagination of the general public, etc etc.
An attempt to control us.

Harvey

that's why we never ever hear of a dirty dress in 
the whitehouse..or stolen nuclear secrets,or 
watergate...or irangate...or hacking the 
pentagon..oh yes they can keep a secret...but 
strangly a saucer is kept secret...hmmm...makes 
you wonder eh?
but i subject this to the normal adhoc rule and 
can say it can be explained by ...mindcontroll!
yes!
brilliant!
that will show the stupid debunkers !
if they ask for ecidence we can say it's forbidden 
to share this with stupid people...perfectly normal!
great!
pfewww! the adhoc rule is great!
every event is now explained and we can accuse the 
us without any evidence of hiding everything we 
say they do...the list will get longer believe 
me...lots of paper..and imagination.

zero cult rulez!

A lot of weird stuff can be part of our history - like what
Col Corso claims - that ET technology was back-engineered to
produce our breakthroughs in science and technology.
The same could be done with ancient mysteries of our ancient
past too --- to look at out of place artefacts, and see how
to reproduce it?

Harvey