Re: Hey you stupid debunkers - Engineer/Astronaut sez ETs here! MORE PROOF!!!
Subject: Re: Hey you stupid debunkers - Engineer/Astronaut sez ETs here! MORE PROOF!!!
From: Ian Parker
Date: 25/07/2008, 11:54
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.research,alt.paranet.ufo

On 25 Jul, 05:35, mike3 <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 24, 4:27 pm, "Hagar" <ha...@sahm.name> wrote:





"mike3" <mike4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:9b32ce2b-f611-445d-bd85-a0a0aae947a0@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...

On Jul 24, 2:30 pm, "Hagar" <ha...@sahm.name> wrote:
<snip>
      There are no UFOs in our Solar System, much less on Earth.

You've been to the entire solar system and all over the Earth, and
looked
everywhere and not found them? I'm impressed. Proving a negative
existential claim is pretty hard, you know? Actually, there ARE
"UFOs",
as in aerial phenomena that one cannot identify. Does that mean they
are alien spaceships? No. It doesn't. It means they cannot be
identified.

Therefore, anyone who thinks they saw one, is delusional.

But seeing one is what you need to do if you want to know it exists.

First off, let me clarify one thing:  Life in the Universe will be proven to
be the rule, rather than the exception.

Yes, I think so.

It is also a given that there are intelligences and technologies billions of
years advanced of our own.

With as many starts, probably so too.

I do believe that other intelligences are traveling throughout the Cosmos.

Yes, this too.

You are correct, there are UFOs everywhere, in the actual sense of the word.
I should have used Alien Spaceships, instead.

Have Aliens been to Earth ?? Very likely.  They may even be somewhat
responsible for our own evolution or even seeding the planet 4B years ago,
for all I know.

But without any proof, you cannot say for sure. I.e. this is just as
speculative
as everyone else. That's the thing with these UFOs -- they cannot be
captured
or studied, just seen -- so for now at least the nature of such FOs,
when they
are truly U (unknown) (as some if not many claimed "UFOs" can indeed
be
explained by common phenomena -- true UFOs -- unknown/unidentifiable
objects -- are only a much smaller proportion of reports), will remain
just that:
U -- unknown. Speculative theories about alien spacecraft are fun, but
without
any proof there is no point in taking them as fact. Mystery is
mystery, and
speculative theories do not resolve it.

But LipFlappers stubborn belief in them reminds me of my wife, who is a born
again X-tian and swears that God exists, even though nobody has ever seen a
trace of him, but she can point to hundreds of coincidences that "could"
indicate divine intervention, but then the odds are against that sort of
thing.

So does this mean even if these "coincidences" happened every single
time, that still
would not indicate anything? Or is it that they don't happen every
single time?

So, unless someone finds pieces parts of an extraterrestrial vehicle or
presents a live (or dead) Alien, which can be positively identified as such,
all the speculation and wishful thinking are just plain, good old bull shit.

They are just that: speculation whose truth value is unknown. To
believe them as
absolute proven fact is silly.

As for tests to determine what UFOs may be, one way is obviously to
shoot some
video and analyze that. Especially shot through a telescope. However I
would not
trust anyone else's video as that could all be faked. Only by shooting
the video
myself would I know for sure that it is not faked (or if I was there
in person with someone
else when they were shooting video.). Similarly, nobody but me or
someone there
with me would be able to trust my video. UFOs also don't seem to show
up on
demand, so that makes it harder still. :)

This would not be conclusive, however, but it might provide a little
more than
100% speculative results. The only rub is, like I said, since
everything can be faked,
one can really only trust it when one does it oneself. And nobody else
could really
trust your results, either. Although obvious hoaxes can be spotted
fairly easily, better
hoaxes cannot. Personally, however, I'd assign Astronaut Mitchell's
statements more
weight than that of some random person off the street, but since they
are still anecdotes
and so cannot be treated as conclusive, hard proof of anything.

It's really sad that there are so many of these hoaxes out there, as
it destroys any
ability to trust testing methods and makes getting to the bottom of
this thing a big,
huge bear of a thing to do! Plus the general reluctance of mainstream
scientists to
dip in on this and collect evidence that would be more credible due to
its coming from
a more trustable source doesn't help either.


To discover the truth you have to look at one thing. ET, no not
extraterrestrial, Emergent Technology. ET (Extraterrestrial) is not
going to go around in Roswell type spacecraft. In fact if ET REALLY
DOES visit us it will be in the form of interlinked probes no larger
than insects. ET will also be able to find out all he wants to by
putting AI on the Web.

The presence of Intelligent like elsewhere in the Universe is
something that has been speculated about. You are quite right to be
annoyed at all the hoaxers that are around. They do not indeed help us
to answer this question.

There is however one thing that is clear to me and it is this. If ET
wanted to make contact with us he would have done so long ago. A
phased array in space at distances of 1,000 parsecs or more would
easily produce enough signal for even a simple dipole array. This
leaves us with but 2 possibilities.


1) ET does not exist.

2) ET is trying to hide.

Personally I tend to "1". However if we assume "2" and suppose that ET
is lurking somewhere in the Kuiper belt, he is hardly likely to
produce Roswell type sightings.

The resolution of the Fermi paradox and intelligent life will come
though better observational techniques DIRECTED AT THE HOME PLANET.
One thing though has been established by observation. There are NO
Dyson civilizations. All IR stars are super giants, not Dysons.

What is the source of all the rumours?

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/story41.html The setting up of
the CIA links

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/anti_grav_010909.html
US Research into antigravity
http://anthonyhmura.blogspot.com/2008/03/witch-hunts-of-mccarthy-and-fagan.html
More Nazi conspiracy theories

http://www.westga.edu/~hgoodson/The%20Cold%20War.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird CIA activities kept
secret from congress
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/kbank/profiles/mccarthy/


McCarthy was NOT a patriotic American. He was anything but. Basically
if you have an influx of people who expertise was lying, smearing and
innuendo you can hardly be surprised if they turn their skills on you.
At one level you can say that whatever the members of ODESSA did it
was in the past, the dead cannot be brought back to life after all.
However there is the question of closure for their relatives. The
Israelis kidnapped Eichmann basically to get closure.

However closure has nothing to do with Relativity, or why it is
constantly under attack. Basically you steer clear of ODESSA because
they are masters of dirty tricks. We can ask yet another question as
to why antigravity is so persistent. It is obvious that it is complete
nonsense in terms of general relativity, or even in terms of non
relativistic energy conservation.

http://www.slate.com/id/2072733/
http://www.padrak.com/agn/
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jdw/jdw020729_1_n.shtml

The explanation lies fundamentally in the need for those concerned to
salvage something of their reputations. ODESSA originally claimed that
there were these marvellous aircraft which were powered by rays from
Aldebaran. Anyone who disagreed was "aldebaran mis khayyid" - not a
good follower. As we have seen in Iraq anyone who understands "mis
khayyid" is "mis khayyid",. It is the dirty tricks and the climate of
fear engendered that has led to its persistence.

There seems to be very little in the way of scientific justification
or theory. If there is I would like to know what it is.
 
http://armanen.blogspot.com/2008/05/aldebaran-and-founding-of-world.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/reichblacksun/contents.htm
This gives a complete account of the Black Sun cult.
McCarty beat his opponent basically by smearing him. He committed
suicide in 1953. Now when McCarthy became Senator for Wisconsin it
should have been obvious to anyone that Antigravity and Aldebaran was
going nowhere fast. However lies, smears and fear gave it a new lease
of life. Later on Roswell, Area 51 and antigravity started to have a
momentum of its own. The basic reason why Relativity is always under
attack is that there are still black projects that are squandering
money. As I said the classic ODESSA stock in trade of lies and smears
set up the environment in which money could be siphoned off in this
way.

If Congress were to believe 100% in Relativity they would in all
probability demand an end to such funding. The conspiracy theorists
talk about the government knowing more than it is letting on, they
talk about cover ups, alien autopsies etc. etc. The basic cover up is
that of a gigantic fraud fuelled by lies, smears, fear and
disinformation in general.

You have to hand it to ODESSA, they strung Hitler along, they got into
the country they vowed to destroy with a series of lies and then
attempted to subvert it. There were, as I think I have said, always
more Nazis in the US than Communists. McCarthy never mentioned them
once. This is why I think he was one of them.


http://users.isp.com/retic/physics/postinglog.htm
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci.space.policy/browse_frm/thread/c114ab58f8f15805/28d66d74f516c916?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#28d66d74f516c916
Rand Simberg 112 you are vectored on this reference to 111.

This and this alone is the origin of the UFO


  - Ian Parker