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http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/9/naomi_klein_on_anti_union_bills
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Naomi Klein on Anti-Union Bills and Shock Doctrine American-Style:
"This is a Frontal Assault on Democracy, Its a Kind of a Corporate
Coup DEtat"
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As a wave of anti-union bills are introduced across the country
following the wake of Wall Street financial crisis, many analysts
are picking up on the theory that award-winning journalist and
author Naomi Klein first argued in her 2007 bestselling book, The
Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. In the book, she
reveals how those in power use times of crisis to push through
undemocratic and extreme free market economic policies. The Wisconsin
protests are an incredible example of how to resist the shock
doctrine, Klein says. [includes rush transcript]
AMY GOODMAN: Rallies for workers rights are spreading across the
country. In Michigan, over a thousand people rallied at the State
Capitol in Lansing to oppose a measure allowing the breaking of
labor contracts by placing schools and districts under emergency
management. In a scene reminiscent of Wisconsin, hundreds of
demonstrators packed the Capitol Rotunda chanting slogans.
Protests were also held against anti-union bills Tuesday in Indiana,
Ohio, Iowa, Florida and Tennessee.
Meanwhile, in Idaho, the state legislature has given final approval
to a measure restricting the collective bargaining of public school
teachers. The bill would limit teachers collective bargaining to
salaries and benefits. It also ends teacher tenure, limits teacher
contracts to one year, and removes seniority as a factor in determining
layoffs.
As a wave of anti-union bills are introduced across the country in
the wake of the Great Recession, many analysts are picking up on
the theory that award-winning journalist and author Naomi Klein
first argued in her bestselling book The Shock Doctrine: The Rise
of Disaster Capitalism. In it, she reveals how those in power use
times of crisis to push through undemocratic, radical, free market
economic policies.
Nobel Prize-winning economist, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman,
recently referenced the book in his
column<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/opinion/25krugman.html>
called "Shock Doctrine, U.S.A." He wrote, quote, "The story of the
privatization-obsessed Coalition Provisional Authority [in Iraq]
was the centerpiece of Naomi Kleins best-selling book 'The Shock
Doctrine,' which argued that it was part of a broader pattern. From
Chile in the 1970s onward, she suggested, right-wing ideologues
have exploited crises to push through an agenda that has nothing
to do with resolving those crises, and everything to do with imposing
their vision of a harsher, more unequal, less democratic society.
"Which brings us to Wisconsin 2011, where the shock doctrine is on
full display," Krugman wrote.
Well, Naomi Klein joins us today in our studio for the hour. In
addition toThe Shock Doctrine, shes the author of two previous
books: No Logo: Taking Aim at Brand Bullies and Fences and Windows:
Dispatches from the Front Lines of the Globalization Debate. Shes
currently writing a new book which focuses on the public relations
campaign distorting climate change facts.
Naomi Klein, welcome to Democracy Now!
NAOMI KLEIN: Hi, Amy. Great to see you.
AMY GOODMAN: Its great to have you with us. Lets talk Wisconsin.
What do you see is happening in this uprising?
NAOMI KLEIN: Well, first of all, its such an incredible example of
how to resist the shock doctrine. And it should not be in any way
surprising that we are seeing right-wing ideologues across the
country using economic crisis as a pretext to really wage a kind
of a final battle in a 50-year war against trade unions, where weve
seen membership in trade unions drop precipitously. And public
sector unions are the last labor stronghold, and theyre going after
it. And these governors did not run elections promising to do these
radical actions, but they are using the pretext of crisis to do
things that they couldnt get elected promising to do.
And, you know, thats the core argument of and the thesis of the
book, is not that theres something wrong with responding to a crisis
decisively. Crises demand decisive responses. The issue is this
backhanded attempt to use a crisis to centralize power, to subvert
democracy, to avoid public debate, to say, "We have no time for
democracy. Its just too messy. It doesnt matter what you want. We
have no choice. We just have to ram it through." And were seeing
this in 16 states. I mean, its impossible to keep track of it. Its
happening on such a huge scale.
Teachers unions are getting the worst of it. Yesterday was International
Womens Day. This isyou know, as you pointed out on your show, its
overwhelmingly women who are providing the services that are under
attack.
Its not just labor thats under attack; its the services that the
labor is providing thats under attack: its healthcare, its education,
its those fundamental care-giving services across the country, which
could be profitable if they were privatized.
AMY GOODMAN: In Ohio, more than 20,000 people marched to oppose the
Republican Governor John Kasichs attempted anti-union legislative
putsch. Kasich recently defended his policy proposals on Fox &
Friends.
GOV. JOHN KASICH: Its part of a big piece of reform. Come March the
15th, we will be reforming Medicaid, K-through-12, higher ed,
prisons. It is going to be a reform agenda in Ohio like no one has
ever seen, all designed to get us in a good position. In terms of
unions? I respect unions. I come from a union family. I mean, the
idea that were attacking anybody islook, what were attacking:
poverty, joblessness. OK, thats what Im attacking. And all Im doing
is saying to everybody, participate. Everybody jump in this. Together,
we can make Ohio stronger. If we do not do that, you know, then
well continue to lose jobs, and that means misery for everybody.
Thats not going to happen.
We are going to be successful here.
AMY GOODMAN: Republican Governor John Kasich, going back to his old
haunt. He was a commentator for a long time for Fox and, before
that, a conservative congressman.
NAOMI KLEIN: You know, the reason why this isnt working and why
people are so outraged by it and why theyre in the streets and were
finally seeing the resistance in this country that we have seen in
Europe, with this chant, "We wont pay for your crisis," that really
started in 2008 in Greece and spread to Italy and France and
Englandand, you know, the rest of the world has been waiting for
the United States toyou know, how much are Americans going to take
of this? It seems that Americans were willing to say, you know, "We
will pay for your crisis, and would you like a tax break with that?"
Right? And finally, they went too far. And so, that resistance is
finally happening.
And this attack on collective bargaining, the reason why people
wont take it is precisely because they understand that this is not
shared pain. It is not being shared equally. The people who created
the crisis in the first place are not sharing the pain. And the
injustice of this response is so blatant. This isnt just any economic
crisis. This tactic has worked. And this is, you know, what Ive
tracked over a 30-year period, that it is really easy to use an
economic crisispeople panic, hyperinflation, issues like that. In
the '90s, when Newt Gingrich was Speaker, it was possible for him
to argue that the source of the budget crisis really was so-called
entitlement programs. You cannot do that in this moment in history
because everybody understands that the crisis was created on Wall
Street, it was created through speculation and greed, and a decision
was made to bail out the bankers with public money and to pass the
bill on to the public. And they're seeing the bonuses back.
Theyre seeing the outrageous salaries. Theyre seeing corporations
not paying their taxes. And its just too unjust. Its just so morally
outrageous. And then to turn on the television and talk about
everybody sharing the pain? I mean, people are just not that stupid.
Thankfully.
AMY GOODMAN: And where does the Obama administration fit into this?
NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: We have played that clip of President Obama when he
was running for president, saying, "If anyone challenges your
collective union rights, I will be walking with you."
NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the irony of this moment,
and this isit really is about democracies. Scott Walker was not
elected with a mandate to bust unions and to strip collective
bargaining rights. He did not mention that in his campaign. He
talked about balancing the budget. He made some vague statements,
you know, about shared sacrifice. But he absolutely did not campaign
promising to do what he is now doing. Obama, on the other hand,
campaigned promising to strengthen union rights. He promised, again
and again, whenever he had a labor audience, that he was going to
pass the Employee Free Choice Act, and he promised to stand with
them.
And, you know, one of the things thats so important for us to
understand about whyyou know, there are many reasons why the
resistance is so strong in Wisconsin and why theyve become this
beacon for not just the rest of the country, but the world, and so
much of it, I thinkyou know, my colleague at The Nation, John
Nichols, has written beautifully about it this week in a cover story
where he talks about the rich sense of collective history, of
collective memory, and the fact that people know their progressive
history in Wisconsin, so theyre harder to exploit. You know, theyre
not going to fall for the latest Fox News messaging, because they
know their history. But, you know, this istheres something else
thats going on here. And, well, I mean, Ill just let you take it
from there.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me ask you about Michigan.
NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: And then were going to go to a break.
NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: About a thousand people rallied in Michigan
NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN:reminiscent of Wisconsin. Talk about the proposal there.
NAOMI KLEIN: Well, I just found out about this last night, and like
I said, theres so much going on that these extraordinary measures
are just getting lost in the shuffle. But in Michigan, there is a
bill thats already passed the House. Its on the verge of passing
the Senate. And Ill just read you some excerpts from it. It says
that in the case of an economic crisis, that the governor has the
authority to authorize the emergency managerthis is somebody who
would be appointedto reject, modify or terminate the terms of an
existing contract or collective bargaining agreement, authorize the
emergency manager for a municipal governmentOK, so were notwere
talking about towns, municipalities across the stateto disincorporate.
So, an appointed official with the ability to dissolve an elected
body, when they want to.
AMY GOODMAN: A municipal government.
NAOMI KLEIN: A municipal government. And it says specifically, "or
dissolve the municipal government." So weve seen this happening
with school boards, saying, "OK, this is a failing school board.
Were taking over. Were dissolving it. Were canceling the contracts."
You know, what this reminds me of is New Orleans after Hurricane
Katrina, when the teachers were fired en masse and then it became
a laboratory for charter schools. You know, people in New Orleansand
you know this, Amywarned us. They said, "Whats happening to us is
going to happen to you." And I included in the book a quote saying,
"Every city has their Lower Ninth Ward." And what were seeing with
the pretext of the flood is going to be used with the pretext of
an economic crisis. And this is precisely whats happening. So it
starts with the school boards, and then its whole towns, whole
cities, that could be subject to just being dissolved because theres
an economic crisis breaking collective bargaining agreements. It
also specifies thatthis bill specifies that an emergency manager
can be an individual or a firm. Or a firm. So, the person who would
be put in charge of this so-called failing town or municipality
could actually be a corporation.
AMY GOODMAN: Whose government they dissolve, a company takes over.
NAOMI KLEIN: A company takes over. So, they have created, if this
passes, the possibility for privatization of a whole town by fiat.
And this is actually a trend in the contracting out of public
services, where you do now have whole towns, like Sandy Springs in
Georgia, run by private companies. Its very lucrative. Why not? You
start with just the water contract or the electricity contract, but
eventually, why not privatize the whole town? So
AMY GOODMAN: And what happens then? Where does democracy fit into
that picture?
NAOMI KLEIN: Well, this is an assault on democracy. Its a frontal
assault on democracy. Its a kind of a corporate coup ditat at the
municipal level.
AMY GOODMAN: Were talking to Naomi Klein, author of The Shock
Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: Our guest for the hour is Naomi Kleinyes, the journalist
and author. Her latest book is called Shock Doctrine: The Rise of
Disaster Capitalism. You can go to our Facebook page, and you can
post questions there for her and just continue to participate in
the dialogue. Let me ask you a question that came to us from Facebook.
This is a question about the Madison protest for you, posted on our
Facebook page. Kevin WilliamsKelvin Williams asks, "Are there any
specific ways that Wisconsin workers can use the ideas in [your
book] 'The Shock Doctrine' to go on the offensive and force true
fiscal responsibility, perhaps even rolling back the compromise
contract?"
NAOMI KLEIN: Mm-hmm. Its a great question. I think whats finally
starting to happen, and this isWisconsin has really been going from
one victory after another. This started off with an attack, but
people have beenhave just found such incredible reserves of resolve
and dignity and collective history that the ground is shifting. So,
the situation under which those compromises were made, those
concessions were made, its changed. You know, people are feeling
their power and their possibility.
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, its amazing now. The Governor, who was just
elected, Scott Walker, a few months ago, is nowhis popularity has
dipped to the 30s.
NAOMI KLEIN: Mm-hmm.
AMY GOODMAN: And even the conservative newspapers are asking serious
questions.
NAOMI KLEIN: Mm-hmm, yeah. I mean, he clearly made a real miscalculation.
I mean, what was obvious is that he was really playing to the
national stage.
Hes clearly a very ambitious guy. Hes got real national political
aspirations. I think thats clear. You know, in that conversation
with fake David Koch, the prank call, he compares himself to Reagan.
He compares his actions to Reagans firing of the air traffic
controllers, that sort of "shot heard around the world" moment.
Thats what he wanted, you know? And he is not getting that.
AMY GOODMAN: And then he said, first he fired the PATCO strikers,
and then the Berlin Wall came down. He made that link.
NAOMI KLEIN: He said it. And its not a crazy link, in the sense
that it was part of a frontal assault on labor and the left, and
it continued for many, many years. But, you know, its not the 80s
anymore, and people are on to these tactics.
And I do thinkyou know, just coming back to that questionthat it
is possible. But the real key is that we have to be having the
debate about where the money should be coming from. I mean, if there
is a fiscal crisisand in Wisconsin, theres a crisis that was created
by tax cuts, and this is why theres so much outrage, because it
comes back to that false claim that theres shared sacrifice here.
There isnt shared sacrifice here. There are gifts that are being
handed out to the elites. Scott Walker is governing based on this
radical free market ideology that if we just create the perfect,
most hospitable, most gentle, less demanding conditions for
corporations to do business, then well have a booming economy, and
it will trickle down, and everyone will benefit. And that is exactly
the ideology that Obama campaigned againstand wonsaying we cant
keep giving more and more to the people at the top and waiting for
it to trickle down. And that was a message that really resonated
with voters.
One thing I wanted to come back to that I was starting to get at
earlier about why whats happening in Wisconsin is happening in
Wisconsin and what we need to take from it is that when bad things
are happening, its helpful to have a bad guy. And Scott Walker is
a good bad guy. And he has galvanized progressives. And people have,
you know, an enemy to organize around and to point out these
disparities. It hasnt happened at the federal level, despite the
fact that Obama is also involved in attacking labor rights with his
pushing of charter schools and draconian budget cuts. Hes not a
good bad guy for progressives. So, were still in a situation where
Obama is getting away with, in my opinion, shock doctrine-style
tactics, because people dontstill dont want to believe that Obama
is doing it, too. So, when you have an easy bad guy, a Republican
governor whos obviously trying to be the reincarnation of Ronald
Reagan, you can mobilize the left. But it wont just work if we are
only going after the Republicans and if this is fought along just
partisan lines, as opposed to being fought based on principle. No
matter who is doing it, we need to be mobilizing, if its Obama, if
its Scott Walker.
AMY GOODMAN: And the people that President Obama surrounds himself
with, especially when it comes to the Wall Street insiders, especially
as we move into the 2012 election, when its said Obama will raise
more than a billion dollars for the presidential election?
NAOMI KLEIN: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, theres a lot of denial, still,
about who Obama is and who he surrounds himself with. And, you know,
were going to talk a little bit later about Tim DeChristopher, but
Ive said it many times: Obama is fundamentally a centrist. And I
do think that when there is a mobilized progressive movement in the
United States that is putting pressure on him, on Democrats in
Congress, they will respond.
And thats another lesson that we can take from Wisconsin. You know,
I was talking, once again, to John Nichols the other day, and he
said, "Whats really working here is that we have the inside-outside
pincer." Right? Youve got people in the streets, but you also have
DemocratDemocratic lawmakers willing to put themselves on the line,
being surprisingly courageous, leaving the state, and blocking it.
So it isnt just the people in the Rotunda. It isnt just the protesters
at the rally. Its a kind of a partnership thats going on. Why is
that happening? Well, they looked out the window, and they saw their
voters in the streets really committed and really mobilized, and
that gave them courage.
And thats something really important to remember about howyou know,
so many liberal groups are involved in this gentle backroom lobbying,
a token protest here and there, which says, "Im willing to spend a
couple of hours on a Saturday, but Im not really willing to fight
to win." And whats going on in Wisconsin is something very different.
Its not just a rally on a Saturday afternoon. It is people really
upending their lives for weeks and weeks and weeks on end. That
sends a message to politicians who want to get re-elected that this
is a big issue, a top priority. And they hear that.
AMY GOODMAN: Were talking to Naomi Klein, author of The Shock
Doctrine, as we turn now to Tim DeChristopher.
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