Subject: Re: OT: Microsoft OS features (was Re: Problem w/SETI Queue. Possibly from latest SETI Spy?)
From: AthlonRob
Date: 19/09/2003, 02:11
Newsgroups: alt.sci.seti

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On 18 Sep 2003 15:12:34 -0700, Al Wilson <astronomer@mailinator.com> wrote:
http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm

Oh boy, the FUD runs fast and deep in that article.  Linux this
and Linux that.  Too bad Linux can't run quality do-something
software.  I tried Linux, here is what I found:

Let me say... wow... is Microsoft paying you?  :-)

For future reference, responding to posts like this is a lot easier if 
you break things up in to smaller paragraphs... one key point per 
paragraph, if you could...

Firstly, Linux is very hard to use. Yes, many distributions are easy to
install and KDE has a nice user interface. That is only there to trick
unsuspecting users. Try installing software in Linux. Most of Linux
software is available as source code. Many Linux cult members lie
that it is easy to install from source code. All you have to do is type
3 commands: ./configure, make and make install. That is nothing but
bull. Every distro puts files in different places. The configure is
supposed to guess where all the files it needs are. It always 500%
of the time fails. You have to edit files with cryptic garbage to get
it to work. After all of that you learn you need a crap load of
dependencies. These are library files needed for software to work,
similar to .dll in Windows. So then you have to search all over the
internet looking for the crap load of dependencies and after 5 days
you find them all. You try to install them and you get warnings that it
cannot be installed because other crapware needs an older library
file. So you spent 5 days for nothing.

You hit on two points there - ease of use and ease of software 
installation.  You say 500% of the time, configure fails?  And because 
it can't find needed dependencies, due to them being different places in 
different distros?  The configure script, if you look at it, actually 
goes out and finds the needed dependencies on your system, looking in 
many places.

I've been using Linux as my primary OS for about two years now, on my 
server, desktop, and recently on my laptop, as well.  I can count the 
number of times I've had to go in and edit Makefiles by hand (I assume 
this is what you mean when you say 'cryptic garbage').

If you use a recent distribution, not an old outdated CD you found in 
the black of a magazine, you'll find a 'default' install picks up most 
of the libraries most software needs these days.  But then, if you find 
you are incapable of reading up on the software you're installing, Linux 
isn't for you.  I would argue computing isn't for you beyond 
point-and-cilck-through-Word... but we won't go there.

There is rpm which is precompiled software packages. This is a little
easier but you still run into dependency hell. Then there is Debian's
apt-get and Gentoo's emerge commands. You type apt-get GIMP
and it will download GIMP and its dependencies and install it. This
is very easy, however this only works for a very small amount of
software. The vast majority of the software will not work with apt-get
or emerge. Now you know why Linux distros come with several CDs.
They are loaded up with software because it is the only way to install
them.

I don't like RPM or .deb based distros - but they *do* seem to work, 
especially the apt-based distros like Debian.  I really like Gentoo's 
emerge system, it's easily modified to do *exactly* what I want it to 
do.  It even goes out and finds those missing dependencies for me.

I don't know *why* you would say 'the vast majority of the software will 
not work with apt-get or emerge' because a vast majority of free 
software *does*.

I'm running a command on my Gentoo box that will count the number of 
unique applications available Gentoo's Portage - it came to 6,042.  I 
updated it this morning.  I just updated it again, now, about eight 
hours later... and the number is now 6,046... so four apps have been 
added in the last eight hours.

And Gentoo's portage can't compare to Debian's apt databases.

Just add on to that Wine, WineX, Crossover Office, and the Crossover 
Plugins.  Now you have most Windows software working, too.

Linux is not stable. I have had several kernel panics in the past 5 months.
I have had nothing but freezes and lock ups. Windows 2000/XP is
10 trillion times more stable than Linux. I have built 20 computers
since Windows 2000 has came out and all 20 have never had a freeze,
auto reboot, bsod, hiccup or a burp. Many have run several months
24/7 without even a warm boot. On top of that you can run something
called quality software. You put in the CD and insert finger in ass and
the software is installed without problems.

Whoa... Linux not stable?

You're doing something wrong... really wrong... if you're getting kernel 
panics.  I've had a few, myself, playing with development drivers or 
hacking drivers up myself to see if I can do this, that, or the other 
thing.

My server has an uptime of 138 days.  It's hit 120 days four times now, 
only to be taken down for hardware upgrades.

Windows, on the other hand, is crashing all the time.  It's locked up 
twice since I got my laptop.  Another laptop in the house has had it 
lock up ten or fifteen times in the last year.  Then we have an Athlon 
600 machine, identical to the one with those 120+ day uptimes except it 
has more RAM and a 600MHz CPU (vs 550MHz on the server).  It crashes 
every few hours, it is hardly usable.  These systems are all running 
Windows XP, upt-to-date with all available updates.

And it's very easy for me to install software here, on these systems.  
When I *do* run in to a problem, I'm able to figure out what it is, too, 
because I get an error message less cryptic than "installation failed" 
as one gets with so much Windows software these days.  Ever try 
debugging *anything* in Windows?  Ugh.  If it doesn't work, that's about 
all there is to it.

Now that you know it is next to impossible to install software in Linux,
lets take a look at a few impossible to install astronomy programs for
Linux. 
<snip>

I've never played with amatuer astronomy programs before, so can't 
comment much on their status in Windows vs Linux....

KStars is a popular Linux astronomy program. First it is version 0.9
that means beta and it is buggy and crashes. Also it doesn't have the
<snip>

Errrmmmmm... a version number bein <1 does *not* mean it is buggy beta 
software that crashes a lot.  Take the window manager I use, for 
example... version 0.1.14 is the stable version.  And it doesn't crash, 
period.

OSS developers don't tend to jump up to the magical 1.0 just because the 
software is stable and ready for prime-time... they tend to wait until 
it is *perfect* doing everything they want it to do, before they call it 
1.0.

How many Netscape versions (>6) were released, based on Mozilla <1 code?

Kstars and Xplns put together. That's right folks: Windows has better
free software than Linux does.

Have you tried running your amatuer astronomy software under Wine, 
WineX, or Crossover Office?

<snip>
Windows is freedom. It gives you the choice to run top quality astronomy
software such as TheSky, Skymap Pro, Skytools and Guide the best
astronomical software there is period. You can even have free software
such as CDC, Hello Northern Sky which blow away Kstars, Xplns
and XEphem software. You even have the freedom to run Linux-like crap
such as crappy Sky Globe. Do yourself a favor: run as fast as you can
away from the communist evils of Linux and embrace the freedom of
Windows 2000/XP.

Ah - you can run nice astronomy software in Windows.  It must be 
freedom.  heh.

You can do *anything you want to* with Linux.  If I decide I want to do 
something, I Just Do It.

Linux is freedom in that it is open-source.  Most all of the software 
available for it is open-source.  The implications of this are 
astounding... software you can modify to do whatever you want it to do, 
all for free.

Say no to Linux.

Geeze, yeah... who would use Linux when there's free astronomy software 
for Windows out there?  Because, of course, everybody is interested 
enough in astronomy to put a bunch of software on their computer about 
it.

The scope of Linux you've seen is so limited you are doing nothing but 
spreading FUD when you harp on it.

Have a nice day.

-- Rob | If not safe, Email and Jabber: | one can never be free. athlonrob at axpr dot net | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/alephm6KEoOOAe0RApTkAJ9Fh1iDp7FoZ77CLX7k/WxnssRQIwCgoH64 xX74WBTrgbQvWv0Qixptb4U= =ycu2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----