Skunk Works Mailing List
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:14:29 -0500
From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest)
Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #103
skunk-works-digest Wednesday, September 8 1999 Volume 08 : Number 103
Index of this digest by subject:
***************************************************
Re: Edwards AFB
Re: Edwards AFB
Re: Iran rescue Hercules
Re: Edwards AFB
Re: Edwards AFB
Re: Edwards AFB
Re: SR-71 and F-22
Another book review (kinda)
Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Re: Another book review (kinda)
Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
RE: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighte r
Let's Just All Get Along....
Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
RE: Let's Just All Get Along....
Off-Topic Request
Getting along
***************************************************
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 99 14:10:56 GMT
From: betnal@ns.net
Subject: Re: Edwards AFB
On 9/1/99 10:53PM, in message <Pine.GSO.4.05.9909012225130.585-100000@stucco>,
Wei-Jen Su <wsu@its.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Hey guys, today I was in Edwards AFB and saw the F-22 Raptor 01
> taxing to her hangar, and next to the hangar was a SR-71 with the two
> vertical stabilizer removed! Anyone know which SR-71 was and what was
> doing there? Also saw the Raptor 02 with a orange cylinder attached to the
> top back of the airplane, anyone know what is it? Looks like a camera or a
> spin recover chute. Ah, I also saw the SR-71B with the tail number 831.
>
The SR-71 was probably 968, the next SR they were about to restore to flight
status when Clinton killed the program. It was towed over to where the USAF ones
were kept in order to get it out of the way. I suspect eventually USAF will try
and destroy it.
Art
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:03:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Allison <allison@habu.org>
Subject: Re: Edwards AFB
> > Hey guys, today I was in Edwards AFB and saw the F-22 Raptor 01
> > taxing to her hangar, and next to the hangar was a SR-71 with the two
> > vertical stabilizer removed! Anyone know which SR-71 was and what was
> > doing there?
>
> The SR-71 was probably 968, the next SR they were about to restore
> to flight status when Clinton killed the program. It was towed over to
> where the USAF ones were kept in order to get it out of the way. I sus-
> pect eventually USAF will try and destroy it.
>
> Art
Actually they've taken the high road and given all 4 flyable SR's to NASA,
and the other 2 are going to museums. I'd rather see all 6 go to NASA,
but as long as they don't melt them down and make golf clubs out of them,
I count it as a win for our side. More details on 968's fate here:
http://www.richmond.com/StyleWeekly/output.cfm?ID=3389
David Allison
webmaster@habu.org
S L O W E R T R A F F I C K E E P R I G H T
/ \
/ \
_/ ___ \_
________/ \_______/V!V\_______/ \_______
\__/ \___/ \__/
www.habu.org
The OnLine Blackbird Museum
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary Shafer <shafer@spdcc.com>
Subject: Re: Iran rescue Hercules
On Tue, 31 Aug 1999 JNiessen@aol.com wrote:
> Mary, et. al.,
>
> You're indeed wrong on the pilot. It was good friend Neil Anderson...who's
> still alive, well, and flying (in T-28s these days, rather than F-16s).
He deserves to be--that was an exquisite landing he did. I've got a
copy of the video clip around somewhere, which I shamelesly begged from
one of the GD guys, that's on a tape of my personal "Greatest Hits".
I've got a "Greatest Misses" tape, too, but it's mostly PIOs, with the
F-16 Flight Zero figuring right up there with the FA-19 near-ramp-strike
in the initial sea trials (body bending filters in the forward loop and
the FCS guys worked in the same building as John Hodgkinson, who was
giving papers at the time showing the terrible effects of time delay in
the FCS).
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com
"Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard
Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end...."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:17:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary Shafer <shafer@spdcc.com>
Subject: Re: Edwards AFB
On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Wei-Jen Su wrote:
> Hey guys, today I was in Edwards AFB and saw the F-22 Raptor 01
> taxing to her hangar, and next to the hangar was a SR-71 with the two
> vertical stabilizer removed! Anyone know which SR-71 was and what was
> doing there? Also saw the Raptor 02 with a orange cylinder attached to the
> top back of the airplane, anyone know what is it? Looks like a camera or a
> spin recover chute. Ah, I also saw the SR-71B with the tail number 831.
That SR-71 is missing the rudders--what little there is of the vertical
stabilizers is right there; the rudders sit on top of them. It's also
missing the rudder pintles. Are you sure you're familiar with the
airplane? It's a pretty major error to not know it has all-moving
rudders, not real vertical stabilizers.
Anyway, that's the second of the warehoused airplanes that the Air Force
kept in the great giveaway at retirement. They got back the A we'd kept
in flyable storage and got it back in the air quickly, got the first of
the warehoused airplanes back in the air, and were counting the B as
their third airplane, since they were renting so much time on it from
us. However, they were required to have three aircraft, so they'd
started on getting this second warehoused airplane back in the air when
the line-item veto shut them down. We may get the airplane, mostly
because AFFTC doesn't want to find the space for another one and no one
wants to tug it back to Plant 42 through Lancaster.
Yes, that was probably a spin chute. The F-22 just went to 60 deg
alpha, so I'd think a spin chute would be appropriate.
The B, 831, is parked out on the ramp for the Dryden public tour to see.
It's being kept in flyable storage. The A, 844, with the LASRE mount is
kept in Bay 4 of the RAIF, too far to take the tour, particularly on hot
summer days.
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com
"Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard
Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end...."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:43:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary Shafer <shafer@spdcc.com>
Subject: Re: Edwards AFB
On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, David Allison wrote:
> > > Hey guys, today I was in Edwards AFB and saw the F-22 Raptor 01
> > > taxing to her hangar, and next to the hangar was a SR-71 with the two
> > > vertical stabilizer removed! Anyone know which SR-71 was and what was
> > > doing there?
> >
> > The SR-71 was probably 968, the next SR they were about to restore
> > to flight status when Clinton killed the program. It was towed over to
> > where the USAF ones were kept in order to get it out of the way. I sus-
> > pect eventually USAF will try and destroy it.
> Actually they've taken the high road and given all 4 flyable SR's to NASA,
> and the other 2 are going to museums. I'd rather see all 6 go to NASA,
> but as long as they don't melt them down and make golf clubs out of them,
> I count it as a win for our side. More details on 968's fate here:
>
> http://www.richmond.com/StyleWeekly/output.cfm?ID=3389
But we already had two of them (which we were flying until very
recently) and were expecting to get the third (which we'd kept in
flyable storage and returned to them to speed up the reactivation) back
anyway, as these were the three they'd given us in 1990. The only "new"
one is the first A that they'd taken from Plant 42 and gotten back
flyable. The airframe without the rudders or rudder pintles is the
_second_ warehoused A, which is one of the two that they're going to
give away.
Let's try the arithmetic again. Dryden gets 3, 2 As and 1 B, and the
USAF puts 3 As in a warehouse in Palmdale. Dryden keeps two (1 A and 1
B) flying and returns a flyable (but only cold, not hot) A to the USAF,
ferrying it to Plant 42. These are still the three given to Dryden.
The USAF has Lockheed get that returned A hot-flyable (our hot gig was
broken, so we couldn't) and also pull one of the three warehoused A out
and make it flyable, Now we're up to four flyable airplanes, three
Dryden's, one USAF, with two at Dryden and two at Palmdale. They fly
the two flyable As back to Edwards and tug another warehoused A to
Edwards. Now we're up to five, four flyable (two Dryden's, two USAF,
but one of these two is really Dryden's) and one unflyable (USAF). The
sixth is still in the warehouse in Palmdale, unflyable. Dryden keeps
the two that have never left, gets the A that we'd kept in flyable
storage back, and gets the only flyable USAF A. The two unflyable
USAF As are given away.
Of the three USAF warehoused airplanes, only one was rehabilitated. A
second one was supposed to be, but got caught in the cancellation. A
third one wasn't supposed to be, and in fact wasn't.
The USAF isn't "giving" Dryden any four airplanes because we already had
three of them to begin with. They're returning one and giving us
another. No more.
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com
"Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard
Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end...."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Allison <allison@habu.org>
Subject: Re: Edwards AFB
On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Mary Shafer wrote:
>
> The USAF isn't "giving" Dryden any four airplanes because we already had
> three of them to begin with. They're returning one and giving us
> another. No more.
Oops. My bad. What I meant by "giving" (and anyone who knows better,
please correct me) is that the 3 original Dryden aircraft (the B and 2
A's: 956/831, 980/844, and 971/832) were loaned to Dryden by the USAF
but not given away. As I understand it, the USAF has turned over the
pink slips to Dryden for all 4 flyable aircraft (the previous 3 plus
967).
If this is the case, this will be the first time that they have truly
GIVEN and not just loaned blackbirds to NASA. Both YF-12As (935 and
936) and the (cough cough) YF-12C (951 aka 937) were loaned to NASA
but eventually had to be given back (except 936 which was totalled).
Again, if I've got it wrong, somebody please tell me.
David Allison
webmaster@habu.org
S L O W E R T R A F F I C K E E P R I G H T
/ \
/ \
_/ ___ \_
________/ \_______/V!V\_______/ \_______
\__/ \___/ \__/
www.habu.org
The OnLine Blackbird Museum
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 16:30:26 EDT
From: Xelex@aol.com
Subject: Re: SR-71 and F-22
In a message dated 9/3/99 06:25:21, Wei-Jen Su wrote:
<<next to the hangar was a SR-71 with the two vertical stabilizer removed!
Anyone know which SR-71 was and what was doing there? Also saw the Raptor 02
with a orange cylinder attached to the top back of the airplane>>
The SR-71A is 61-7968. It was going to be the third DET 2 aircraft,but will
now probably end up in a museum.
The F-22 (Raptor 02) is equipped with a spin chute. That was the orange
cylinder on the aft end.
Peter W. Merlin
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:25:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl <schnars@ais.org>
Subject: Another book review (kinda)
During today's visit to the bookstore, I looked at a new book called:
"F-22 Raptor -- America's Next Lethal War Machine" by Steve Pace, published
1999 by McGraw-Hill, ISBN: 0-07-134271-0.
It costs $36.95 [$25.87 at amazon.com], is a hardcover, and has 144 pages.
It is advertised as Volume 1 of a new Aviation Week Group book series,
called "The Walter J. Boyne Military Aircraft Series". Other volumes to
follow include: B-24 Liberator, B-1 Lancer, B-2 Spirit, and next year B-17
Flying Fortress, F-105 Thunderchief, F/A-18 Hornet/Super Hornet and B-47
Stratojet.
I skimmed through it [something amazon.com has not been able to provide yet]
and read some captions, but didn't have the time to read much of the text.
Most of the pictures are small, black and white photos, many of which have
been published in various other publications, and some are even available on
the internet. I can't say much with respect to the (textual) contents of the
book, but Sweetman's "F-22 Raptor" book -- selling for about a third -- has
many of those photos, all in color and much bigger. The book seems empty,
with lots of white spaces, small pictures, wide margins, and a relatively
large format.
If anyone bought it, I would appreciate a small review on the contents. At
this point, I will pass on it.
Another book that I would love to see a review for, is: "Have Blue and the
F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter'" by David C. Aronstein, Albert
C. Piccirillo, published by the American Institute of Aeronautics, ISBN:
1-5634-7245-7, ($54.95). If it is any good, I guess I will finally order it,
as a nice little birthday present to myself. :)
- -- Andreas
- --- ---
Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org
313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu
Flint, MI 48502-1239
Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/
- --- ---
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:26:53 -0400
From: "James P. Stevenson" <jamesstevenson@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Andreas wrote:
> Another book that I would love to see a review for, is: "Have Blue and the
> F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter'" by David C. Aronstein, Albert
> C. Piccirillo, published by the American Institute of Aeronautics, ISBN:
> 1-5634-7245-7, ($54.95). If it is any good, I guess I will finally order it,
> as a nice little birthday present to myself. :)
It is the best book about the F-117 that is available. It is well
researched and heavily footnoted. It is worth getting.
Jim Stevenson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 06:36:55 -0700
From: patrick <patrick@e-z.net>
Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
At 08:26 AM 09/05/1999 -0400, Jim Stevenson wrote:
>
>It is the best book about the F-117 that is available. It is well
>researched and heavily footnoted. It is worth getting.
>
>Jim Stevenson
>
>
You believe that stuff just cause two guys we never heard of wrote it down
on paper? How do you decide to believe stuff or not anyway???
patrick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 07:29:06 -0400
From: "James P. Stevenson" <jamesstevenson@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
> At 08:26 AM 09/05/1999 -0400, Jim Stevenson wrote:
>>
>>It is the best book about the F-117 that is available. It is well
>>researched and heavily footnoted. It is worth getting.
>>
>>Jim Stevenson
>>
>>
> You believe that stuff just cause two guys we never heard of wrote it down
> on paper? How do you decide to believe stuff or not anyway???
>
> patrick
>
A reasonable question which I might ask you--how do you decide?
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:42:50 -0300
From: "Cleverson Borges Sutil" <clevers@hotnet.net>
Subject: Re: Another book review (kinda)
>
> Another book that I would love to see a review for, is: "Have Blue and the
> F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter'" by David C. Aronstein, Albert
> C. Piccirillo, published by the American Institute of Aeronautics, ISBN:
> 1-5634-7245-7, ($54.95). If it is any good, I guess I will finally order it,
> as a nice little birthday present to myself. :)
>
> -- Andreas
>
I have this book but I didn't read it yet, but I can make a little resume about
its structure:
Chapter 1 - Introduction
Introduction of RCS, studies made by DARPA in 70's, military interst in RCS
due to vulnerability of airplanes in Vietnam.
Chapter 2 - Have Blue
It's about Have Blue with drawings showing Hopeless Diamond, Have Blue
and an intermediate configuration between them. It seems to me that ECHO 1
program is cited first in this chapter. XST's phases I and II are shown in this
chapter.
Chapter 3 - Advanced Tactical Aircraft Genesis
It has only six pages.
Chapter 4 - Full-Scale Development
Senior Trend cited with drawings of an F-117 and a Have Blue shown here,
characteristics like propulsion, dimensions, payload of both are compared.
Development, flight tests, IRADS.
Chapter 5 - Production Planning and Implementation
Many tables about planned buys, custs, production.
Chapter 6 - IOC and Beyond
Preparations, PGM development, Navy Evaluation and others.
Chapter 7 - Senior Trend: Lessons Learned
Problably a sumary os all chapters from 1 to 6 and appendices A and B.
Chapter 8 - Covert Program: Favorable and Unfavorable Impacts
Tha advantages of a covert program like the possibility the program
survives technical difficulties that normally could cancel it.
Chapter 9 - Could It Happen Today? Changes in the Acquisition Environment
Appendix A - Early Efforts to Develop Low RCS Vehicles
A few lines about Horten IX Flying Wing; Lockheed Gusto-2, A-12, D-21 and
U-2 with its RCS reduction attempts; Boeing AGM-69A; McDonnel Quiet
Attack Aircraft; Teledyne Ryan BQM-34A, Mini-RPV, AQM-91A Compass
Arrow and others aircrafts.
Appendix B - Development of RCS Prediction Methods
Contains mathematical equations and figures about reflection, refraction,
diffraction and etc.
Appendix C - The "Skunk Works" Approach
Problably they explain why Skunk Works successed, instead of other division.
Photos of XF-90, XP-80, A-12, A-12 with D-21, U-2 and others.
Appendix D - Contemporary Reports on Early Low Observables Development
Appendix E - Senior Trend Acquisition Plan, July 1980
Appendix F - Pilot's Report on F-117A First Flight
Appendix G - Summary of Costs and Contracts
Appendix H - Have Blue and Senior Trend Time Table
Chronological events related with stealth technology. Begins in the 19th century
with Maxwell's equations and goes to July 1997.
|o|
|o|
____________ Imperial Tie fighters spying at the wall.
Cleverson Sutil
clevers@hotnet.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:57:55 PDT
From: "MIDI MAN" <rb338@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
At 08:26 AM 09/05/1999 -0400, Jim Stevenson wrote:
>
>It is the best book about the F-117 that is available. It is well
>researched and heavily footnoted. It is worth getting.
>
>Jim Stevenson
>
>
>You believe that stuff just cause two guys we never heard of wrote >it down
>on paper? How do you decide to believe stuff or not anyway???
I would believe these sources more than I would believe rumours eminating
from conversations with ex F117a pilots over lunch!! - Patrick, what a
stupid worthless comment. Christ this list is getting boring - I'm off!
>patrick
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 06:57:54 -0700
From: patrick <patrick@e-z.net>
Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
At 12:57 AM 09/08/1999 PDT, you wrote:
>
>
>At 08:26 AM 09/05/1999 -0400, Jim Stevenson wrote:
>>
>>It is the best book about the F-117 that is available. It is well
>>researched and heavily footnoted. It is worth getting.
>>
>>Jim Stevenson
>>
>>
>>You believe that stuff just cause two guys we never heard of wrote >it down
>>on paper? How do you decide to believe stuff or not anyway???
>
>I would believe these sources more than I would believe rumours eminating
>from conversations with ex F117a pilots over lunch!! - Patrick, what a
>stupid worthless comment. Christ this list is getting boring - I'm off!
>
>
Well accused of being boring is something worse to me than anything else I
can imagine. You stay, I'll leave.
patrick
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:16:01 EDT
From: MELUMAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Why not both of you take off?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:45:35 -0700
From: Erik Hoel <ehoel@esri.com>
Subject: RE: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighte r
This is actually quite a humorous exchange when taken in the larger context
of some of the discussions that Jim Stevenson has provoked wrt the
believability of the application of stealth technology, etc.
I'm going to stay on the list - keeps me chuckling.
Erik
- --
Erik Hoel mailto:ehoel@esri.com
Environmental Systems Research Institute http://www.esri.com
380 New York Street 909-793-2853 (x1-1548) tel
Redlands, CA 92373-8100 909-307-3067 fax
> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrick [mailto:patrick@e-z.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 6:58 AM
> To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com
> Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth
> Fighter
>
>
> At 12:57 AM 09/08/1999 PDT, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >At 08:26 AM 09/05/1999 -0400, Jim Stevenson wrote:
> >>
> >>It is the best book about the F-117 that is available. It is well
> >>researched and heavily footnoted. It is worth getting.
> >>
> >>Jim Stevenson
> >>
> >>
> >>You believe that stuff just cause two guys we never heard
> of wrote >it down
> >>on paper? How do you decide to believe stuff or not anyway???
> >
> >I would believe these sources more than I would believe
> rumours eminating
> >from conversations with ex F117a pilots over lunch!! -
> Patrick, what a
> >stupid worthless comment. Christ this list is getting
> boring - I'm off!
> >
> >
> Well accused of being boring is something worse to me than
> anything else I
> can imagine. You stay, I'll leave.
>
> patrick
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:47:28 -0400
From: "Andrew Morris" <morris@admissions.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Let's Just All Get Along....
I manage 3 listservs, and periodically members get testy (gee does
that word come from Testosterone?). Civility and an atmosphere
that encourages discussion are hallmarks of life in
listserv-land.
Periodically I share two Web sites on my lists that were brought
to my attention by people on my lists that help provide some rules
of engagement for members of listservs.
Visit and learn:
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=05386
http://siec.k12.in.us/~west/slides/penpal/sld001.htm
No one under any circumstances should anyone be made to feel that
their opinions are not worth sharing. That does not encourage
list lurkers to shed their cloak and become regular posters to the
list.
The other option is to send your personal barbs off list to the
individual and as we say in the bar: take it outside.
Please, I am not lecturing, I make my fair share of sarcastic jabs
on and off list (though I am relatively new to Skunk-works) I
just like the listserv environment, it has broadened my knowledge
and enthusiasm for things I am interested in (planes).
So no one leave(!) because that leaves voids in the list's
knowledge base, and let us remain civil toward each other.
Andy Morris
Aircraft-list Owner
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 16:49:27
From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David)
Subject: Re: Have Blue and the F-117A -- Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter
Someone wrote:
Patrick replies:
>>I would believe these sources more than I would believe rumours
>>eminating from conversations with ex F117a pilots over lunch!! - Patrick,
>>what a stupid worthless comment. Christ this list is getting boring -
>>I'm off!
>Well accused of being boring is something worse to me than anything else I
>can imagine. You stay, I'll leave.
I don't know - I'm away for a while and come back to this !
I am sure that losing Patrick would be a serious blow to this list.
As a general observation - talking to people who design, fly and maintain
a/c is an excellent way of conducting research.
For heaven's sake - how do you think anyone finds out about aircraft to
write a book - >primary research<, such as Patrick has conducted and is
being rebuked for.
Jay Miller is on this list from time to time - and I'll put good money on
the fact that as a matter of routine he talks to engineers, pilots and
designers as well as digging in archives etc. It's the >only< way to do
the job to the standard that he does...in fact it's the only way to do the
job period.
We disagree on this list from time to time - so what ? Feelings run
high, but there's never any need to resort to name calling - it's
counter-productive and just plain silly. It's not how we do things here.
Jeez...I was having such a nice day too :)
Dave
[Self appointed guardian of courtesy]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 12:47:00 -0500
From: gregweigold@pmsc.com
Subject: RE: Let's Just All Get Along....
Well spoken (written) Andy... I too manage several other listservs and have the
same problems.... comes with the territory I guess. One of my main rules is to
refrain from name calling, because that gets no one anywhere!
If you have a personal comment to make, make it off-line. If you have an
observation about something, make it here. That's part of what we're here for!
Greg
- -----Original Message-----
From: <skunk-works@netwrx1.com > at INTERNET
Sent: September 08, 1999 11:47 AM
To: "Skunk Works" <skunk-works@netwrx1.com> at INTERNET
Subject: Let's Just All Get Along....
I manage 3 listservs, and periodically members get testy (gee does
that word come from Testosterone?). Civility and an atmosphere
that encourages discussion are hallmarks of life in
listserv-land.
Periodically I share two Web sites on my lists that were brought
to my attention by people on my lists that help provide some rules
of engagement for members of listservs.
Visit and learn:
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=05386
http://siec.k12.in.us/~west/slides/penpal/sld001.htm
No one under any circumstances should anyone be made to feel that
their opinions are not worth sharing. That does not encourage
list lurkers to shed their cloak and become regular posters to the
list.
The other option is to send your personal barbs off list to the
individual and as we say in the bar: take it outside.
Please, I am not lecturing, I make my fair share of sarcastic jabs
on and off list (though I am relatively new to Skunk-works) I
just like the listserv environment, it has broadened my knowledge
and enthusiasm for things I am interested in (planes).
So no one leave(!) because that leaves voids in the list's
knowledge base, and let us remain civil toward each other.
Andy Morris
Aircraft-list Owner
______________________________________________________________________________
Greg Weigold, Technical Consultant
mailto:gregweigold@pmsc.com
Cyberlife - BPO
http://www.cybertek.com
Cybertek Corp. (a PMSC company)
http://www.pmsc.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:57:05 -0500
From: "Robert S. Hopkins, III, PhD" <drbob@shemya.net>
Subject: Off-Topic Request
Colleagues,
Please forgive the off-topic request, but I can't think of a better
source of experts on "black" airplanes than the Skunk Works clan.
I received an e-mail that has, frankly, left me skeptical: Some
RB-36s Peacemakers were painted all black with red tail codes, and
operated from North Africa on missions along the Turkish-Soviet
border. During these missions, the RB-36s purportedly overflew the
USSR, and may have tangled with MiGs. I have found absolutely no
evidence to corroborate this claim of unique paint scheme or
overflight in any of the documentation I have uncovered from the Air
Force overflight programs.
Feel free to reply privately to
drbob@shemya.net
Thanks for suffering an off-topic subject.
DrBob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:14:09 -0400
From: "James P. Stevenson" <jamesstevenson@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Getting along
I think the point is that there is no place for attacking the person,
only the person's statements or ideas.
I never took offense with anyone who disagreed with what I said about
the possibility that stealth does not work. I particularly appreciated
those who made counter arguments that were on point.
But to attack the person is always a sign that one has no real rebuttal;
only that the attacker is frustrated that what was being said does not
comport with a preconceived position.
Jim Stevenson
jps@attr.com
------------------------------
End of skunk-works-digest V8 #103
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Created: Thu Sep 9 03:28:57 EDT 1999