Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:30:54 -0700
To: area51@lists.best.com
Subject: Digest area51.v001.n003
-------------- BEGIN area51.v001.n003 --------------
001 - "zero" <akazero@pe.net> - No more arrests?
002 - jdc@taligent.com (Dave Cr - Re: AREA 51: Why Yasinski Message Was Rejected
003 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Mailing List Personality
004 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Groom Lake Runway History?
005 - Joseph C Yasinski <jcy@U. - Re: AREA 51: Why Yasinski Message Was Rejected
006 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Who will moderate the moderator?
007 - ytivarg@value.net - Nuclear Powered Planes or NPPs at Area-51
008 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Home Addresses of Cammo Dudes
009 - "A.J. Craddock" <craddock - Fast Train to Groom Lake
010 - mayor@tiac.net (Ken MacGr - Re: Message Response
+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM THE AREA 51 MAILING LIST - A Moderated Forum |
+---------------------------------------------------+
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.1 ---------------
From: "zero" <akazero@pe.net>
Subject: No more arrests?
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:57:41 +0000
While in Rachel for the Leviathan Cave hike and subsequent Rave
party. The Business Manager of the Area 51 Research Center (Ms.
Singer) mentioned that the Lincoln County Sheriff is no longer
arresting people when they violate the restricted zone.
She indicated that a group (number unknown) of German tourists were
sighted for trespassing when they crossed the boarder, they were given
a $600 dollar citation and had their car impounded, but were not
taken to jail.
I thought this was an interesting turn of events. Is Lincoln County
in this for just the revenue generated from the fines?
Jim--
[See reply below.]
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.2 ---------------
From: jdc@taligent.com (Dave Croyle)
Subject: Re: AREA 51: Why Yasinski Message Was Rejected
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:01:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>-- As I read the subject and first few sentences, a thought occurs
>to me: "This is boring." Whatever new data or arguments this
>message might present, there is no hint of it at the top. A
>basic principal of good writing -- in newsgroups, newspapers or
>any other non-fiction -- is to tell people what is important
>immediately. Otherwise, they'll never get to the rest of the
>message.
If these are grounds for rejection then I suggest the "intelligent and
interesting" part of the charter also include that messages must be well
written. I agree that the text in question is not well written, but
still...
> Is there any hint of new information that could
>help us get to the truth about Area 51? Are there any astute
>social observations? Is there any tidbit that might meet the
>charter's requirement of _intelligent_ and _interesting_? Getting
>to the end of the message, I still can find anything.
Perhaps then "interesting" should be changed to "interesting to Glenn or
the moderator", and I mean no malice in that.
Clearly, what is interesting is highly, if not completely, subjective. It
appears that Ken found the message in question interesting, as did I
(despite the poor writing). On the other hand, I found the previous email
on anti-gravity uninteresting. I believe that a lot of future headaches can
be prevented by making the charter either less subjective in its criteria
or by defining that subjectiveness in no uncertain terms.
>By rejecting a message, the moderator is not saying that the
>message has no right to exist or that it doesn't have some value
>to someone somewhere. All the moderator is saying is that it
>isn't useful at present to the list's "high end" audience of
>intelligent, well-versed '51 watchers.
Personally, I'm not sure how the anti-gravity email was "useful" to Area
51 watchers, as opposed to Lazar watchers. I consider myself among the
former but not the latter when I can help it. :)
>If the moderator fails to make these decisions, then this list
>becomes just another version of the newsgroups, dominated by a lot
>of low-quality messages no one wants to read.
I have frequented many newsgroups over the years and been on several
email lists. The ones that seem successful use their charter to filter out
flames and unrelated material, and then what is interesting is left to the
reader. A stellar example of a successfully moderated newsgroup is
rec.guns, whether you like the subject matter or not.
The point I'm beating to death here is that "interesting" bit in the
charter. I think Glenn has done an admirable job in explaining his intents
and wishes for the mailing list, but I'd like to see the "interesting"
reins loosened a bit.
Looking foraward to replies, ( I think :)
Dave
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.3 ---------------
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas)
Subject: Mailing List Personality
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:45:08 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Perhaps then "interesting" should be changed to "interesting
> to Glenn or the moderator", and I mean no malice in that.
> Clearly, what is interesting is highly, if not completely, subjective.
Hmmm... That's not far from the truth. "Interesting" is
always relative.
The mailing list has a personality. It is a living, breathing
organism and what is interesting to the group is going to vary
with time. Something that is fascinating one week might become
"boring" the next depending on the group's experience.
The trouble now is that the group has no experience, since the
list has just started. If the personality of the list now
resembles my own, this is unavoidable. The alternative is to have
NO personality and make NO value judgments. Selectivity is what
distinguishes this list from the newsgroups, and that means that
someone has to make decisions that might piss people off.
Things that once seemed interesting and productive to me -- like
chasing the Cammo Dudes or sitting out all night looking for lights
in the sky -- now seem tedious and unproductive. I think that
3+ years of fairly useless Cammo Dude reports from people on the
border are more than enough to satiate any fairly intelligent '51
watcher. Can't we get a little deeper?
Although this list attempts to be fair and "rule based," it should
not be mistaken for a democracy. The Research Center (i.e. me)
has chose to sponsor, on our server and with our resources, the
kind of list that we believe would be the most useful right now --
that fits a niche between the order of the web and chaos of the
newsgroups. This is not the only mailing list possible; other
people can create their own.
> I have frequented many newsgroups over the years and been on several
> email lists. The ones that seem successful use their charter to filter out
> flames and unrelated material, and then what is interesting is left to the
> reader. A stellar example of a successfully moderated newsgroup is
> rec.guns, whether you like the subject matter or not.
This difference between rec.guns and this group is that rec.guns
has no active goal. It is not seeking to promote research; it is not
trying to find any "truth". The rec.guns of two years ago is
probably much the same as rec.guns of today. In a situation like
that you can come up with a static set of rules and never have
to change them.
The goal of our group is to expand our knowledge of a certain field.
To this end, the moderation of the list has to be much more focussed
than rec.guns. You can't keep on talking about the same firing
mechanisms.
In our group, someone has to say, "Okay, that's enough of that topic.
Let's move on." Otherwise you'll get in a rut of discussing the same
old things. The list itself will become boring and the really
intelligent subscribers with the most to contribute will unsubscribe.
Acting Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.4 ---------------
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas)
Subject: Groom Lake Runway History?
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:14:23 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Another mind game...
The document below purports to be a Groom lake runway history.
I haven't plotted the coordinates. I did email the author last
night and asked the obvious question: "Where did this come from?"
I haven't had a reply yet.
Rubbish perhaps, but how do we prove it?
Glenn
----------
From: RobertTHC@AOL.COM
To: webmaster@ufomind.com
CC: RobertTHC@AOL.COM
Date: 96-08-28 18:50:21 EDT
Dear Mr. Dean Kanipe:
Please accept this 1 1/2 page contribution. I agree to your "Use of
Copyrighted Material from Others".
GROOM LAKE RUNWAYS -- ABRIDGED --
MAPS: USGS 7.5 min. Quad. "GROOM MINE" 37115-C7. "PAPOOSE RANGE" 37115-B7.
Provisional Editions 1989. 1:24,000. 1"= 2,000'. (37degN; 115degW). Minutes
(') and Seconds (") for reconstruction. Space activities abridged.
Pre-1943. Original aircraft testing site just off SW corner of (dry) Groom
Lake, 4,440' elevation, Nellis Air Force Range, southern Nevada.
1943,44. 12,200'x75' flight test runway at SW corner of Groom Lake, bearing
25degW. NW corner of runway 16'23.6"N; 49'38.4"W. SW corner at 14'33.1"N;
48'38"W. 75' width is E of straight line connecting the corners.
1952. 4,800'x75' extension S of 1943,44 runway. SW corner at
13'49.5"N; 48'14.4"W. Total length 17,000'.
1952,53. 12,600'x125' flight test runway, 600' E of and parallel to the
75' runway. NW corner 17'25"N; 50'2.7"W. SW corner 15'30.9"N; 49'0.7"W. The
125' width; E of straight line connecting corners.
1957. 15,400' roadway across Groom Lake, bearing 64degE. W end of road
15'10.6"N; 49'17.8"W. E end 16'14.9"N; 46'26.9"W. Surface building at E end
housing wreckage. Also a reverse engineering facility; metallurgy. Only 70
Base Personnel knew of this place.
1959. 18,700'x75' flight test runway across Groom Lake, bearing 46degE. NW
corner 15'12.2"N; 49'17.9"W. NE corner 17'20.1"N; 46'32.4"W. 75'width; SE
1961. 18,200' roadway across Groom Lake, bearing 23degE. W end 15'14.1"N;
49'18.6"W. E end 17'58.4"N; 47'49.3"W. Surface building at N end; biology
research.
1962. In the 1961 facility, started 30-year development of a plant-life
which has special effects on humans.
1964. Center; Groom Lake. Anti-gravitation device test. Unsuccessful.
1966. 16,050'x75' runway across Groom Lake, bearing 73degE. NW corner
16'38.1"N; 49'42.2"W. NE corner 17'24.4"N; 46'32.9"W. 75'width; S. General
useage, supplies, personnel, equipment for the Base.
1968. New (and present) Control Tower, 15'46.7"N; 49'28.7"W. Aircraft
only. 400'x200' hangar construction N end of 1952,53 runway, center
17'22.5"N; 50'13.3"W. Long side parallel to runway. For large cargo
aircraft and heavy, large equipment.
1968,69. 14,270'x125' heavy cargo aircraft runway centered between
1943,44 and 1952,53 runways. NW corner 17'26.3"N; 50'8.7"W. SW corner
15'17.3"N; 48'57.4"W. 125' width; E.
1970. Occurrance Friday, September 11, at 10 pm for one-half hour.
1970,71. 12,350'x75' additional S extension to 1952 runway. SW corner
11'57.2"N; 47'13.6"W. (Should be straight line.) Length 29,350' (5.56 miles).
1971 start, 1973 operational. Extensive research complex in Papoose
Range. Main building, 500'x250' centered at 11'5.8"N; 49'19.7"W.
1973 start, 1975 operational. Prison; mid-Papoose Range.
1976. 14,100'x125' runway, bearing 80degE, on the connecting lake bed just
W of Groom Lake. NW corner 15'51.5"N; 52'24.4"W. NE corner 16'37.9"N;
49'40.5"W. 125' width; S.
1978. 12,900'x125' straight-line extension to the N end of 1968,69 runway.
Length of both 27,170' (5.15 miles).
1982. The 1961 facility became a headquarters.
1986. 1978 runway extension abandoned. Marginal location.
1992. Wreckage from 1957 re-located to a site west of Groom Lake. 1957
road not used much since. 1962 development relocated S of Groom Lake.
1993. Start April, operational October. 8,780'x125' extension N of
1968,69 runway. NW corner 18'49.4'N; 50'40.7'W, 125' width; E. Bearing 18degW
(7deg CW rotation at N end of original runway near the 1968 hangar). For heavy
cargo aircraft. Intervening hillocks hide these take-offs from eastern
viewing. Straight-line N/S extent of the overlapping 75' and 125' runways
44,880' (8.50 miles).
1994. Main building 500'x40', center 20' 22.4"N; 50' 41.5"W. Long axis
N/S. Instrument inside; reason for 31,500' runway (below).
1994,95. Nov-Feb. 9500'x125' straight-line extension to N end of 1993
runway. Total 18,500' (3.5 miles).
1995. June-Dec. 13,000'x125' straight-line extension to N end of 1994,95
runway. Total of the three 31,500' (5.97 miles). Long-runway jet fuel
research test without takeoff. Straight-line N/S extent of overlapping 75'
and 125' runways 67,400' (12.77 miles).
The 1994 building and the 1994,95 and 1995 runway extensions are
camouflaged.
END
(c)Robert Harry Hover 1995 robertTHC@aol.com La Mirada, California.
All Permissions Granted. September 27, 1995.
What good is information Updated, Feb 11, 1996.
if you don't share it. Abridged, Aug 27,1996.
-----
His AOL Profile:
Screen Name: RobertTHC
Member Name: ROBERT HARRY HOVER
Location: La Mirada,, CA USA
Birthdate: 02-22-20
Sex: Male
Marital Status: Married
Computers: 486 DX2/66 clone
Hobbies: BODY-REPAIR ACTION, UBK Vipassana, Interstellar @ Earth
Occupation: Retired. Owner of The Hover Company.
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.5 ---------------
From: Joseph C Yasinski <jcy@U.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: AREA 51: Why Yasinski Message Was Rejected
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:27:48 -0700 (MST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Although I agree that my post was not very well written,(for
which I apologize, but I live in a fraternity house and it's quite noisy)
I take
offense to the uninteresting part. The fact that the cammo dude may be
taking a different posture in securing the perimeter can be very useful to
people who frequent the area. I feel that glenn may be nursing some old
wounds that I have tried to make amends for. I think this newsgroup is a
great idea, and could benefit many paople who are tired of reading about
the link between the CIA and AIDS on a.c.a51. But I also feel that the
moderator, whomever thay may be, should be a little more objective in
regards to whom the material may be useful to. And just to make a point,
I thought
flaming was not allowed in this arena, but Glenn took his opportunity to
throw in the beavis & butthead comparison(to which I was most amused.)
Surely glenn, you are a big
enough man than to cast petty dispersions just because you created this
forum. Anyway I do apologize and I hope this whole matter can be cleared
up quickly. lets get to the good stuff and quit the petty politics.
Joe Yasinski
"How do you shoot the devil in the back..What if you miss?"
Joseph C Yasinski jcy@U.Arizona.EDU
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.6 ---------------
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas)
Subject: Who will moderate the moderator?
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:39:22 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
:I thought
:flaming was not allowed in this arena, but Glenn took his opportunity to
:throw in the beavis & butthead comparison(to which I was most amused.)
:Surely glenn, you are a big
:enough man than to cast petty dispersions just because you created this
:forum.
Yeah, I felt bad about that as soon as I sent it. Who will moderate
the moderator? I guess if I had recieved it from some one else I might
have sent it back and said, "Tone this down a bit." ...or I might have
passed it through unchanged.
It may be unrealistic to expect totally sanatized copy. What is a flame
anyway? Context and experience are important here, just like deciding
what is "boring."
As a moderator, if a flame was especially clever, enough to make me
smile, and was employed in the service of some on-topic discussion,
I'd probably let it pass. If it was just a dull diatribe or
series of swear words, I'd probably kill it. Moderating is an art,
not a science. An occasional clever flame might slip by, but a
_boring_ flame is inexcusable.
I _still_ I picture Bevis & Butthead, dreaming up the next
Desert Rodent in their frat house room, laughing their goofy laugh.
BTW: Where _is_ the Desert Rodent?
As a moderator, the most important thing to me is to keep things
stimulating and on-topic. Flames are bad mainly when they bring
discussion on the main topic to a standstill. As long as the rest of
a message's content is good, a little light flameage won't kill
the post.
REGARDING ARRESTS AT THE BORDER
> The Business Manager of the Area 51 Research Center
> mentioned that the Lincoln County Sheriff is no longer
> arresting people when they violate the restricted zone
> [just ticketing them for $600].
That has been the policy for a couple of years now. The jails
of Lincoln County are already packed, so the Deputy just writes
a citation for $600. It is still a profitable enterprise for the
county.
Glenn
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.7 ---------------
From: ytivarg@value.net
Subject: Nuclear Powered Planes or NPPs at Area-51
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 08:04:09 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I was enjoying the www.ufomind.com web site when I read a
report about people seeing strange planes or helicopters
that fly without making any noise usually associated with
planes around the Area-51 area. Well these so called
"silent" planes reminded me of Nuclear Powered Planes or
NPPs. I was reading that NPPs could in theory stay in the
air for weeks at a time, only stoping for food. If anyone
knows anything more about NPPs at Area-51 please post it to
the Area 51 Mailing List Archive.
p.s.
The NPPs would be silent because they would use a closed
loop power system.
dave
ytivarg@value.net
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.8 ---------------
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas)
Subject: Home Addresses of Cammo Dudes
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:25:43 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Here they are, the home addresses of some of the "Cammo Dudes", the
anonymous Groom Lake security force. This is probably the longest
list ever published of people who work at Area 51.
Armstrong, Robert R. 651 Ave. F Boulder City, NV [?]
Cain, Richard William 740 Reagan Dr. Las Vegas, NV [?]
Coulston, James Wayne 291 Queen Mary Ct. Henderson, NV [Former]
Countryman, John Richard 3846 E Gowen Rd. Las Vegas, NV 89115
Deley, Thomas Louis 6356 Cobalt Ln. Las Vegas, NV 89102
Domkowski, Donald Ray 223 E. Maulding Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89123
Dye, Michael Kevin 1420 Bamber Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89117
Fackrell, Howard S. PO Box 418 Panaca, NV 89042
Filkins, Clorne 6725 Evanston Ave Las Vegas, NV 89108
Goodman, Fox Roland 1406-H Santa Margarita Las Vegas, NV 89102
Howe, Robert Arthur 2033 Wagonwheel Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89119
Hull, William J., Jr. 431 Ash St. Henderson, NV 89015
Koranda, Thomas R. 1021 Palmhurst Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89128
Larsen, Lars Nils 5670 Gorham Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89110
Leach, Loren Edward 7636 Raven Hills Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89129
Learned, Kenneth Allen 501 E. Rolly St. Henderson, NV 89015
Linton, Richard John 2981 De Silva Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89121
McFarland, Darrel Keith 4239 E. Philadelphia Las Vegas, NV 89104
O'Connor, Jonothan Harris 3628 Hamlin Pl. North L.V, NV 89030
Palay, David Daniel 1682 Autumn Rust Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89119
Roundtree, Lawrence Thomas 1663 Candice St. Las Vegas, NV 89115
Sides, Hubert E. [Not found]
Taylor, Thomas Earl (USAF) 3004 Chapala Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89120
Weathington, Jerry M. 3333 Durham Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89101
For more information, see What's New at
http://www.ufomind.com/new/current
...and the Cammo Dude page at
http://www.ufomind.com/area51/orgs/security
Glenn
+------ U F O M I N D -------+
| Glenn Campbell campbell@ufomind.com |
| AREA 51 RESEARCH CENTER - Las Vegas & Rachel, Nevada |
| UFOs - Gov't Secrets - Philosophy - Psychology |
| http://www.ufomind.com Box 448, Rachel, NV 89001 |
+------------------------------------------------------+
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.9 ---------------
From: "A.J. Craddock" <craddock@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Fast Train to Groom Lake
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:47:25 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This article recently appeared in the UK magazine UFO Reality.
>Quote
On Monday 26 March, 1996 private investigator Nikolos Soren of Los Angeles
called a news conference at the onvention Center in San Diego.
He told reporters that while on a stakeout just west of the Montgomery
Freeway, he aimed his 'bionic ear' shotgun microphone across the bay at the
Coronado Naval Amphibious Base one Silver Strand Blvd. He then accidently
listened in on a conversation at the base.
According to Soren, he heard one officer say:
>
"Oh, shit! Look at the time. We'd better get back in. The tube train
leaves in fifteen minutes for Groom Lake!"
The alleged tube train is said to connect Coronado with Area 51/Groom Lake
at the Nellis Air Force Range in Nevada, 255 miles to the east. The Navy
has of course denied the existence of the tube train, or any other
"underground bullet train". However, at a further news conference on Friday
March 29, Soren claimed to have received phone calls telling him to "shut up
about the train".
Regards
Tony Craddock
--------------- MESSAGE area51.v001.n003.10 ---------------
From: mayor@tiac.net (Ken MacGray)
Subject: Re: Message Response
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:59:33 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Ken --
>
>To make this message meaningful, you should probably give a paragraph
>or two telling what the document is about and why it is worth visiting.
>
>Glenn
>
>:Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:02:32 -0400
>:To: area51@lists.best.com
>:From: mayor@tiac.net (Ken MacGray)
>:Subject: UFOs, AREA 51 & THE NEW WORLD ORDER
>:
>:I'm not sure if this interview has been circulated before, but I just ran
>:across it and it is dated July/August 1996... Taken from
>:http://www.peg.apc.org/~newdawn/norio.htm
>:
>:...Ack. Waitaminnit. After scanning to the end, I see it's just a long plug
>:for a video... Well, I won't repost it here. I'll leave it up to
>:those who wish to check it out...
---------------
Area 51. Groom Lake. Dreamland. These are all
names that refer to a U.S. military base so secret
the government cryptically acknow-ledges its
existence only as an operating location.
For UFO researchers, it is one of the most closely
watched areas in the world. Black projects, mind
control technology, stealth helicopters, top secret
weapons and UFO-type crafts are all rumoured to
be under development and testing in this remote
location in the Nevada desert.
But are these new technologies man-made or the
result of a secret pact between the U.S. government
and extraterrestials? While most UFO buffs favour
the latter, serious investigators are confident that
something all too human is going on at Area 51.
To find out a little more about Area 51 and what
the U.S. government is hiding, we asked former
Regional Director of the Civilian Intelligence
Network and prominent Dreamland researcher
Norio Hayakawa....
=============================================================
Ken MacGray, Administrator - Virtual Village BBS
Central Massachusetts' Premier Online Service
508-368-4222 - email:mayor@tiac.net - http://www.tiac.net/users/mayor
Area 51 Images/Lore/News: http://www.tiac.net/users/mayor/a51/a51.html
=============================================================
--------------- END area51.v001.n003 ---------------
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