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From: BGBOPPER@aol.com
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:05:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 02:54:50 -0500
Subject: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51

I would like to thank both Kevin Randle and Stanton Friedman for answering my
first post on this, or for that matter any newsgroup.

I found Kevin's answers to be concise, easy to understand, and without malice
directed at the questioner.

On the other hand I apologize to Mr. Friedman, for it seems that he feels
that my questions are both unreasonable and uneducated.

>Re Russ Estes list of questions. Russ, I am sorry you find my answers or
comments not >responsive. Let me briefly run down your list of questions:

I asked,*
*	1. If we agree on the fact that area 51 is a top secret test facility (and
I'm sure that we all know that it is just that) and if the only reference to
any alien object at area 51 was made by Bob Lazar... What is the point?

>1.I have many times said, there are 2 separate questions: Is Bob Lazar
telling the truth about >Bob Lazar? 2. Are there saucers at Area 51? That Bob
is lying about Bob clearly tells us nothing >about whther there are saucers
there. I have had a quiet witness tell me there were saucers >brought there
back in the 1940s. Led Stringfield has told of people saying there were
saucers >there. It is an obvious site for testing of any kind of highly
classified advanced propulsion >system.

Mr. Friedman, Your answer brings up another question.
Are you saying that there have been saucers at Area 51 since the 1940's?

*	2. Have we forgotten about Wrigtht- Patterson or Wright Field, as it was
called, as the final destination for any recovered artifacts of alien
contact?

>2. I have no reason to say any place was the final destination for saucer
wreckage. Do >you,Russ?That some materials went to WPAFB or WF,  doesn't mean
they stayed there. It is not >very likely that such a crowded highly
populated place would be the testing location anymore >than the U2 was tested
there. Roughly 20,000 people work there and there are roughly 1000
>buildings.. many with highly limited access.

Nope, I have no idea what the final destination for saucer wreckage is.  This
was just a question based on the information that has been published.

*	3. Mr. Friedman, it has been said that you are the only scientist who is in
the field of Ufology  (At least on a full time basis). Have you published
your protocols for the research of the phenomenon?  If you have, where can I
find them?  If not, Why?


>3. I know many scientists involved with ufology. I have no idea how one
would publish >protocols. What I have been doing over several decades
involves many different activities. It is >not like abduction research. I
have published more than 70 papers some quite large, co-authored >a book,
authored another. I think they provide readers with a very good handle on
what I do and >how I do it. .. certainly judging by responses to TOP
SECRET/MAJIC

If protocols exist, I would imagine that publishing them would be fairly
easy.  It seems logical to me that guidelines, methodology, and protocols
must be published and accepted as the standard before anyone could accept the
results as factual.
Also by your answer I get the impression that you feel Abduction Research is
more readily subject to protocols?

*	4. Mr. Randle, what makes you think that MJ-12 and the MJ-12 Operations
Manual is bogus?


>4.Kevin, to his credit, has written a lengthy paper about MJ-12, an appendix
to a book, a >magazine article and other items. I have responded at length.
It would appear that you have read >neither his materials nor mine which one
would think would come before asking these questions. >I hope you don't think
that the internet is the sum of all wisdom.

Mr Friedman, thank you for answering this question even though it was
directed to Mr. Randle.   In response to your answer, I have read most of Mr.
Randle's published work including some fine Science Fiction.  As to the
question of your work, I have read "Crash at Corona" and have seen you speak
on several occasions.  I have also read a few of the articles either authored
or co-authored by you in the MUFON Journal.  As far as your 70 papers go, I
can find no reference to them in the public domain, when you pull up Stanton
Friedman on the Los Angeles Public Library data base you get "Crash at
Corona" and I am sure that your new book has been added.
If you expect anyone who asks you a question to read your 70 papers before
they are qualified to ask that question please get them published.
On your statement referring to the Internet, I find it to be nothing more
than an opportunity to ask a question and get a direct answer..."Sum of all
wisdom"??? I don't think so!

*	5. Mr. Friedman, if in fact area 51 did not exist prior to 1954, as a
secret facility, how could the MJ-12 Operations Manual refer to it?


>5. Obviously if there was no AREA 51 or plans for one as a secret facility
prior to April, 1954, >the Manual could not refer to it. The problem is
getting history on still very highly classified >projects. I have not said
the document is genuine. Read the last paragraph on page 166 of
>TOPSECRET/MAJIC.."authentication will be no easy task, as the results must
be solid enough >to withstand the onslaught of both debunkers and a
government that denies the existence of alien
>craft". Having worked undr security with a Q clearance for 14 years and
having visited 15 >archives, I have a reasonably good idea about how
difficult it is to get information on black >programs.

Mr. Friedman, since you brought it up, How do you define an archive?

*	6. Mr. Randle, it quiet obvious that you and Mr. Friedman don't see eye to
eye on many subjects. It is also a fact the Mr. Friedman has done some
ground-breaking research on the Roswell case.  Why have you not credited him
in either of your books on that topic?


>6. As I have noted and quoted in one of my papers, and as you would have
noticed if you had >read it,I was given a good acknowledgment by Kevin and
Don in "The UFO Crash at Roswell". >Kevin has written more than 2 books about
crashed saucers. Note for example "A history of >UFO Crashes".. Avon.

Once again Mr. Friedman, I thank you for your response...but.. This question
was directed to Mr. Randle and was based on your complaints of not being
acknowledged in the bibliographies of his books.

>By the way Russ, how about telling us about your scientific background ?
Stan Friedman

Stan, since we are now on a first name basis, I have not claimed to be a
"Scientist" nor did I know that I had to clear my credentials with the
credential desk before asking any questions.<Grin>

My goal in asking the questions was not to get in on "Friedman bashing" or
dueling.  Unless I am reading your answers all wrong, and that could be, what
I am getting from them is a pompous attitude and a condescending manner.

The fact that the field of Ufology does not have a certifying board for
researchers or any accredited degrees makes the acceptance of standardized
protocols and procedures even more important.  Then again, if answers to the
phenomenon is not the goal we have both just wasted some precious time.

This is not the kind of correspondence that I usually engage in, in an open
forum, but due to the tone of your answers I felt it necessary to respond.

If feelings have been hurt or if my questions are inane, please forgive me.

R. Estes