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From: "Steven J. Powell" <sjpowell@access.digex.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:05:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 13:13:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Code of ethics

> From: "Clark Hathaway" <earthwrk@cyberport.com>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Code of ethics
>
> > We are incorrect if we expect traditional psychologists to be
> > the alien abduction private detectives that the abductionists
> > pretend to be.  That is something they are _not_ trained for and
> > something they are generally _not_ going to be good at.
> Correct. But, due to the tremendous amount of psychic shock
> attendant to most if not all 'alien' abduction cases, these are
> the 'professionals' who are likely to be chosen to deal with the
> problem. Privately (now known by any who reads this), I feel
> that the shock would be better dealt with by one steeped in
> spirituality then in psychology. I suspect that spirituality has
> everything to do with the problem. By 'spirituality' I AM not
> necessarily referring to those of a clerical persuasion,
> although there are certainly those of the ministry that are of a
> high degree of spirituality. There are a multitude of facets to
> this gem of inquiry my friend. Among these is awareness.

We have self-claimed experiencers from virtually all faiths and
religions so I'm think that a spiritual approach might be pretty
difficult to come up with.  Certainly for some people their particular
religious faith is going to be severely challenged by these experiences.

> > Tough question:  What's more important - getting the
> > self-claimed abductees off the bench and back into the game; or,
> > finding out what really happenned to them?
> Both are of equal importance John and both can be accomplished
> in my view.

But if you could _only_ pick one to start with????

> > Take a glance at the Hippocratic Oath and it'll give you a
> > clue as to the answer the mental health community selects.
> Don't get me started on that one!  <grin>

Hahahaha!!!  The point was that no matter how badly we want to know what
has happenned, and I really want to know what happenned, our _first_
priority has to be to the health and wellness of the _person_.

> > So, if we separate treatment from the detective work I think
> > we can see that virtually all MHPs are basically qualified to
> > initiate (or to facilitate) work with a self-claimed abductee.
> The only facet of the equation that pertains to mental health
> and this is marginal, is the extreme amount of trauma
> emotionally that one receives as a result of this type of
> experience. I was very nearly a basket case by the time that
> hypno-regression was offered to me by a practicing psychologist.
> Having had no other offered alternative or not being aware of
> one, I jumped at the chance.

That's the facet I'm talking about, that's the _only_ MHP aspect I'm
talking about.  Just looking after the health/wellness of the
experiencer, dealing with the trauma in a traditional theraputic
setting.  That is something MHPs do all the time and they really don't
have to have been raped to know how to help rape victims and they really
don't have to know much if anything about alleged alien
abductions/contact to help those people.

> > Another misconception regarding psychotherapy that sometimes
> > confuses things is the notion that whatever it is that's bother
> > someone must be either proven right to be dealt with successfully or
> > must be proven wrong and elimnated from their minds before
> > theraputic success can occur.  Both are completely wrong and neither
> > are a part of traditional psychotherapy.
> I suppose to some degree I experienced this, but as you must
> realize, I AM somewhat an independent thinker and I couldn't
> honestly buy the 'party line'. I have always run partially on my
> intuition and at times it has kept me alive.

Standard therapy isn't about whether your experience is real or not, its
just about the issues related to you and your reactions.

> Don't ask me to elaborate because I won't.

Ok, I won't <grin>.

> > Well, I suspect the debate on hypnotic regression isn't going to go
> > away anytime soon so you and can just respectfully disagree for now
> > <grin>.
> It takes an intelligent, honest and unbiased practitioner.
> However, it is O.K. that we have different opinions, I still
> like yuh. <grin>

Its not the type of thing that either of us need to be right or wrong
on, and eventually it'll get sorted out <grin>.

> > I have several papers on my BBS dealing with eyewitness observation
> > studies.  Children are more easily fooled, and more easily
> > fool themselves but the problem doesn't go away with age.  Adult
> > observational accuracy is only about 50%.
> Julie states that she is familiar with what you are stating and
> that you are correct.
> But she adds, that has nothing to do with hypnosis and
> everything to do with eyewitness observation. Eyewitness
> accounts contain the most fault of all as they are nearly in
> every case different from one another.

Yep, those studies and the ones I'm familiar are not in any way
_directly_ related to hypnosis.

> > I can only, just barely, in the most modest way, appreciate
> > what you experienced.  But remove yourself from the equation for a
> > moment.  You had extraordinary experiences, some of which may have
> > been witnessed (or maybe they were shared).  But aside from the
> > testimonial power of taking your word for it how do we objectify the
> > experiences and convince anyone else that they occurred?
> I don't know other than to undertake what you have suggested,
> that is to be constantly monitored.

Some experiencers go through a period when its extremely important for
them to tell others about what happenned to them for the purpose of
self-testing their own telling of the experiences and for the purpose of
self-testing their belief by attempting to transfer some amount of that
belief to the listener.

As an example only, I'm sure most of us have at one time or another met
a recently converted born-again type person who was totally intent on
converting _us_ at that very moment.  Part of what's happenning in that
event is that the person is getting something positive simply from the
telling/re-telling of their story.  They belief in their experience is
invigorated by the re-telling of it.  Another part of what's happening
is that the person is hoping to get a form of validation by causing the
other person to accept their story.  After all, if you can convince
someone else that what you're saying is true then, in an odd sort of
referential way, it must be true - if it can be believed by someone else
then it must be believable.

> However, I want to present another can of worms.
> This may in reality be a REAL catch 22, John.
> The indicator of this is the seeming fact that the phenomena
> itself controls it's own flow of information concerning itself.
> Vallee has done a lot of discussion on this aspect if I
> understand it correctly. I suspect that in many if not all of
> the cases, if a person is being monitored, the events will cease
> or failing that the monitoring equipment will be rendered
> useless for a period of time corresponding to yet another
> reported abduction. What does one do in such a situation? It is
> obvious that something is occurring, but what?

Of the two options I'd prefer to have the events cease and I'm sure the
'subject' would too!

There is a catch-22 here.  If we establish elaborate electronic
monitoring and that equipment shows _NO_ physical activity and _NO_
signs of tampering with the gear, yet the abductee reports that they
were in fact abducted, we would have no choice except to assume that
whatever happenned was non-physical.

> You got me, buddy. Still, you have to admit that based upon the
> numbers alone, there is something decidedly strange going on.

I've been convincved that something was going on for decades...

> I feel it is ominous. It serves to unsettle me to a degree.
> I don't feel good about it when I think of it. Furthermore on
> another note, it is most unsettling to note that on the New
> Age/UFO/E.T. conference circuit, we witness proclaimed experts
> declaring that the Alien Space Brothers are on their way here
> with eminent arrival to completely restructure our systems of
> religion and to replace the ten commandments.

Who asked 'em?  I'm not a member of any system of religion so I guess I
get the short end of the stick?  I'd be better served if the aliens
replaced my cable TV company...

> What does that tell you about the experts that promote this type
> of material?
> I suggest that these folks are looking for a messiah that is,
> someone to relieve them of the responsibilities for their own
> actions. This was the case of the Jews when Jesus came onto the
> scene. They were looking for the messiah to take them out of
> hard times to sever the Roman yoke.

I think most people go through periods when they question what they
believe and period when they want a set of beliefs that actually work
for them.  I don't think that now is fundamentally different from any
other period of time except that things happen much faster in this time
period.

> > No argument there.  But imagine this:  Imagine the leaders of
> > the AMA, the APA and a dozen other prestigeous medical groups held a
> > news conference and announced that, Yes, aliens are here abducting
> > people.
> You gonna have some panic'd people.

Some.

> > That constitutes recognition of the (alleged) problem but what
> > good would it do, what would happen next?
> After the excitement wore down, it might get some real and
> useful research in progress.
> I AM compelled to add however, that this research does not
> necessarily call for an abundance of mental health
> professionals. I don't feel professional status or occupation in
> these regards are as important as ethical principles.

It actually doesn't call for an abundance of anything except funding.

> I understand that. I have even met a couple who privately shared
> with me the strange events that they had experienced not too
> dissimilar to my own. Perhaps what is needed is a revolution of
> sorts that will remove the minority from visibility and place
> those of true ethics in the spotlight.
> However, how this could be accomplished I have no idea. Somehow
> these in the minority should be shown for the scam artists that
> they are.

Those changes happen across generations.  As one generation moves out or
prominence another one moves in.  It takes time.

> > But I don't think this is about scientists having an open
> > mind.  I'll go out on a limb and suggest that this is really about
> > experiencer's wanting much greater acceptance than they currently
> > have...
> I don't know. I have somewhat disassociated myself from the
> emotional turmoil that was a result of my experience(s). It
> doesn't bother me overmuch that you can't accept outright what I
> recall happened to me. To you it is only information subject to
> question. It is not a part of your subjective experience ...I.E:
> Knowledge. To me however, a good deal of it is knowledge.

You've passed through that period when you _needed_ people to believe
you (because it helped you to believe you).  It _shouldn't_ matter to
you that others don't or can't believe you, and you realize that.
That's about as rock-bottom normal as you cannget <grin>.

> > > Electronic monitoring. I suppose it is possible John, but at
> > > what cost?
> > A few thousand dollars, at most.  Possibly even for free _IF_
> > abductees were to start filing police reports.
> I would be willing to do that as I AM sure others would, if
> assured that there would be NO ridicule from those within this
> profession. I feel however, that this is extremely unlikely.

It occurred to me when I was writing that that in those areas where we
are _already_ using electronic monitoring of pre-release convicts the
costs would be essentially zero.  The equipment is already in place as
are the people to do the monitoring.

> > You lost me on that one.  Please try again.
> Some will see paranormal occurrences while some won't.
> There is much more to 'sight' then the physical eyes.
> Something does NOT have to be a part of everyone's subjective
> experience in order to be real.

I get it, yes.

> > I think you've lost me again.  Reality is.  That is a
> > fundamental concept that would require an enormous amount of
> > scientific evidence to shake.  One very basic assumption is that
> > there is a thing called 'reality' that we can, with much work,
> > observe and figure out.
> Reality IS, yes, but it is composed of layers or levels.
> Energy IS and All is composed of energy. Matter and energy after
> all is transmutable.
> Energy can be described as vibrating at different frequency,
> that is the different components that comprise it vibrate at
> different rates. What I AM suggesting here is that as this
> planet's rate of vibrational frequency is on the rise, so it is
> that everything of a non-sentient nature is rising with it.
> Occupants of this planet that bear sentience must let go of
> certain qualities that serve as restriction in order to rise
> along with everything else. This higher frequency is disrupting
> the natural electrochemical action within the brains of many of
> those who are most resistant to this vibratory rise. These may
> all be metaphysical tenets to be sure, but I believe that I read
> a respectable scientific report somewhere that indicated that
> the vibratory rate of this planet was indeed on the upswing.
> Although not constituting absolute proof of the above, the
> indications are there.

How do we objectively prove that things are vibrating at a higher
frequency, how do we prove that this affects human thinking?

> > On the flip side, we do _assume_ that while 'reality' changes
> > a tiny bit over time, and while we change a tiny bit over time, that
> > the combined change is not sufficient to invalidate 'reality' or our
> > observations of it.  The dangerous assumption inherent in the basic
> > assumption is that we don't think our 'mind' (our consciousness) is
> > changing much.  Since we do all of our observing and understanding
> > with our mind it would be a big problem if _that_ was the element
> > that was evolving...<grin>
> All is in a flux of evolvement and change in my view, John.

You and I have a very different vocabulary but we may be talking about
pretty much the same thing.

> > The human mind uses all sorts of checks and balances during
> > normal conscious worktime to 'determine' the veracity of incoming
> > data (memory).  Most if not all of those checks and balances are
> > suspended or drastically reduced during hypnotic regression.  An
> > item comes into a person's memory stream without passing through
> > those checks and balances and once it is there it is recorded as if
> > it _did_ pass through those checks and balances.  In other words,
> > the person 'acquires' these 'memories' and has no real reason to
> > disbelieve them and every reason to accept them.  They are stored in
> > the person's mind as if they were real and once stored that way they
> > cannot be changed (without active, aggressive and intrusive
> > "brainwashing").
> I must constitute an anomaly, John. I remember things and for me
> they are extremely real, but certain of these I strongly
> question. Even though I disagree with nearly everything that the
> practitioner who regressed me espouses, he did not create any
> confabulation in my mind by suggestion as to where my experience
> was leading. I would like to lay that on his doorstep along with
> other things, but I honestly can't.

But the point is that you wouldn't be able to detect the confabulation
generally.  (Specifically, if confabulation happenned to be counter to
somehting you already knew you might get a hint of it.)

> There have been encounters of sorts and attempts, but they have
> been nipped in the bud.
> I can tell you that these were of a purely paranormal nature.
> Most of them involved Julie as well.

I don't know why most abductionists ignore the paranormal aspects of the
event.  Until recently the paranormal aspects were _actively_ censored
out of abduction accounts, even by MUFON.

> > One of the basic elements of the alien abduction event scenario is
> > that abductions routinely occur to abductees and are
> > cross-generational. That should make it easy to find suitable
> > candidates for electronic monitoring.
> Yes, I understand this to be true. I do not know if this applies
> in my case and if it did, I feel sure that it would be strongly
> denied.

I don't know if that's _actually_ true but its what the abductionists
are saying.

> > NO argument about the trauma.  I (personal opinion) suspect
> > that they are not physical events at all.  Electronic monitoring
> > would likely prove that.  That doesn't mean it isn't real but it
> > would change the direction of abduction research.
> I could recite a few of the more recent episodes that would
> underline what you suggest above.
> Julie awoke in the middle of the night during one of these to
> see a gray coming out of the ceiling above pulling me up toward
> it out of my body. The more physical portion of my body still
> reposed flat on it's back. She made a loud noise and I vividly
> recall her stating that if I lay back they couldn't take me.
> Needless to say, I did. Now this isn't something that any
> instruments can capture other than the physical secondary sounds
> which aren't necessarily present in each occurrence or all
> occurrences.
> The above is the tail end of one of these episodes. What started
> the episode was Julie being awakened by a droning noise that
> increased in volume. She opened her eyes and began to notice
> that the room we were in was becoming lighter and lighter. She
> could 'feel' who ever was causing this become cognizant of the
> fact that she (Julie) was aware of what was going on. At that
> point, the room began to grow dimmer. Julie would close her eyes
> to experience the same thing a little later on. She stated to me
> the next day that she found the event to be extremely interesting.
> Finally she went totally back to sleep only to be awakened with
> the view of me being pulled upward.
> No such activity has occurred since we have been here in the
> four corners area.

I guess the move was a benefit in more ways than one!

Your description suggests that it was much more a 'paranormal' event
than a physical event.

> I follow you. However, this training that I alluded to isn't
> necessarily mental, but spiritual.

Well, to be acceptable it'll have to 'packaged' in such a way as to be
non-spiritual <grin>.

> > Suppose this was done by _real_ mainstream scientists and
> > MHPs.  Even then do you think the taxpayers of this country would
> > stand still for nationwide taxpayer-funded abductee version of a
> > flu-shot???
> Again, I follow you. However, not many medical people in my
> experience would be qualified to provide this training much less
> suggest where to obtain it. I also wish to point out that those
> who are qualified to provide this training would accept very
> little recompense for it. It would also be extremely difficult
> if not impossible to provide this type of training in a
> classroom type setting.
> But then again, I might be serving to limit things. :-)

If average people can be trained then so can medical people, if
medical people can be trained then they should be able to train
others...  Just may take a little more work.

> > You and I won't live long enough to see that.  We know that
> > dowsing is a real, objective and physical phenomenon but we really
> > don't have a good model for how it works.  We know that magnetic
> > fields are somehow involved in functinal dowsing but we don't really
> > know how. We also know that magnetic fields are involved in a number
> > of mind-reality phenomena, some of which are observational.  That's
> > (so far as I know) about the sum total of what we can safely say we
> > know to date. (Except that magnetic fields, like gravitational
> > fields, don't exist on their own but are the result of something
> > else.)
> O.K.  I'll tell you that I strongly feel that the majority of
> mankind had better see it John.
> This phenomena is occurring to more and more people all of the
> time.
> We are entering a new paradigm and I feel that mankind's well
> being as a whole may depend upon this. There are those of
> mankind however that will feel no impact of these occurrences.

I just don't think it'll happen that quick.  It might, but I just don't
see any indication that it will.

In fact, the best indicators right now suggest to me that the entire
area of so-called alien abductions is ging to winding down over the next
roughly 10 or less years.  If there's nothing new to report then you
have to re-report the past and you can only re-report the past a few
times before it becomes boring...

> I do not feel that these phenomena fall into an MHP realm John.
> It is NOT a mental phenomena. Some of the cases may occur at
> least partially on a physical (third dimensional) level, but
> other aspects of each case seem to occur on a higher level of
> reality.
> Our explanation of the etheric seemed to make some sense to you.
> If this is in fact a level of reality in support of the physical
> as I have tried to indicate, and most of the occurrences do take
> place upon this and/or the astral or auric,  then perhaps you
> can extrapolate the possible ramifications upon the physical.

Our vocabulary differences and the terminology could get thick
here...<grin>

When I say 'mental' I'm not suggesting 'non-real,' I'm only making the
distinction between physical and non-physical.  What you call the
'etheric,' because it is non-physical, doesn't necessarily mean non-real
and I think is an aspect of the 'real,' non-physical, mental realm.

The idea that because something is 'mental' and/or non-physical that is
is therefore non-real is _wrong_ (my opinion).

The MHP aspect of this is _strictly_ related to the therapy associated
with the trauma of the experiences.

> I AM suggesting that perhaps mankind is being undermined here.

Could be.  I don't know enough to know if its a negative or positive
thing.  I don't even know enough to know if concepts like 'negative' or
'positive' are even applicable.

--

Thanks, take care.
John.

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[  sjpowell@access.digex.net  ]
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