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UFO UpDates Mailing List

From: Ed Stewart <egs@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:34:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 14:28:08 -0500
Subject: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51

> From: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca
> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 18:28:15 -0400
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

> Ed Stewart: get off my back. Tangible evidence indeed.. You want a
> T shirt or ashtray  issued by MJ-12?

No, thank you.

> A video of a meeting of the Operation Majestic 12 reunion committee??

No, thank you.

> Perhaps you would really like an alien body, six pieces of saucer wreckage
and a Zeta Reticulan license plate?

No, thank you.

> Evidence covers far more
> than Tangible.. Eye witness testimony, for example, is considered evidence.

If you have any evidence that establishes multiple, independent, direct,
link-by-link, verified chains of evidence to show that MJ-12 is real, or
that establishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents, that I
would like to see.

> I have  noted a great deal of evidence of things not known at that
> time by any outsiders but turning out to be true for example.. but why bother.

I have responded to the above proclamation before and shown your claim
to be false. Not only to your reference that only insiders could have
known, but also I have demonstrated that "outsiders" did in fact know
before the arrival 1984 date of the film to Shandera.

Perhaps you don't recall, or was busy with other matters and never saw
my posting of August 11, 1996 repudiating your false claim of "only
insiders could have known." Also, there are many new members to this
list that were not here in August and have not seen the response to your
false claim.

Here is the relevant portion of that posting:

---
For one thing the more than 30 pieces of information that turn out to be
true are simply not relevant to either providing direct link evidence
to the claim that MJ-12 is real, or to establish the genesis/provenance
of the documents. But since I brought these issues up in a prior missive
and asked if there was anything in your new book that established the
genesis/provenance of the book or provided direct link evidence to the
central claim that MJ-12 is real without getting a response, lets move
into some of these alleged details that you claim "...were not known
before the documents were received."

Let's take a closer look at this. Canadian Wilbur Smith's memo was
known to Ufologists since the late 70s that linked him to Vannevar
Bush. Friedman himself received a copy of this memo in the late 70s from
researcher Scott Foster. This memo created a strong interest in Bush.
Many researchers followed up and tried to find out as much as they could
about Bush.

This interest/research could have uncovered many of Bush's
relationships before the arrival of the MJ-12 film to Shandera, including
the Bush-Menzel "connection". Friedman himself in IUR, Vol. 13, No.1,
Jan/Feb 1988 "The Secret Life of Donald H. Menzel" stated:

     "In checking my files on Vannevar Bush after hearing of the
            *************************************
      briefing document from Shandera and Bill Moore I found a
      letter to Bush from Robert Proctor..."

The Proctor letter establishes the Bush-Menzel connection as well as
the Menzel loyalty hearings. If Friedman already had this information
in his files before hearing of the MJ-12 film, so could have other
researchers interested in Vannevar Bush, as also other researchers that
had co-researched with Friedman in a generous exchange of research
material gathered. And one of them may well have followed up on the
Bush/Menzel lead also.

Also, an FOIA from researcher Robert Todd to the FBI requesting Menzel's
FBI file shows that anyone requesting Menzel's FBI file would have
received information establishing Menzel as a NSA consultant as well as
confirmation of the loyalty hearings already established with the Proctor
letter. Also, the FOIA FBI file received by Robert Todd showed that
Menzel himself requested his own file shortly before he died in 1976, but
died before receiving it with the FBI sending it to his wife instead.
That means that his wife did know about her husband's NSA involvement as
well as the loyalty hearings since the FBI files contained that information
and more.

Also, many researchers knew that FOIA requests to the FBI were
producing some results. As an instance, Moore, himself in his own
catalogs and newsletters advertised for sale FOIA FBI files on numerous
UFO personalities that he himself secured from the FBI through the FOIA.
This establishes that researchers were familiar with the process and that
data was available on UFO personalities from the FBI, or for that matter
from Moore also. If Moore wasn't selling a particular UFO personality's FBI
file at the time, an FOIA to the FBI would have resulted in a reply. Menzel's
was available through the FBI.

As for all the "revelations" regarding Twinning. Twinning was already a
focus of research in ufology before 1984. Friedman himself
stated on page 92 of "Top Secret/Majic":

     "As Bill [Moore] read the memo to me over the phone, I was
      immediately reminded of a July 13, 1953 Cutler-Twining
      memo we had found in late 1981 at the Library of Congress
           *************************
      Manuscript Division."

And from page 101:

     "First, Twining's schedules were unclassified - theoretically,
      any private citizen could have requested them."

So, not only was Twining a subject of research by UFO researchers before
1984, but his schedules were unclassified and easily accessible by
anyone.

On "special date" November 18, 1952 MJ-12 Eisenhower briefing.

     "General Twinning was definitely at one of the Pentagon
      briefings with Eisenhower." page 234.

Since Twinning's schedules were unclassified and easily accessible and
since he had been a major focus of UFO research well before 1984,
as established by the example offered of Moore/Friedman 1981 archival
research of Twinning, any date associated with Twinning could well have
been secured before the arrival of the MJ-12 film and known to any researcher
that was interested in Twinning. The same holds true for the Sept 18 and
Sept 19 dates associated with Twinning claimed by Friedman as "insider"
only information, but not necessarily so.

On "special date" Sept 24, 1947, date of Truman-Forrestal memo. Since
this date relates also to Bush, who was a major focus of research
due to the 70s Wilbur B. Smith memo, anyone researching Wilbur
Smith/Bush connection during the first half of the 1980s could have come
across this date where he met Truman. After all, according to Friedman the
only date where Vannevar Bush did meet with Truman in the last months of
1947 was the special date used in the Truman-Forrestal memo. An outsider
with the knowledge of this date may well have found it extremely attractive
since it also included Forrestal, but Friedman claims only an insider could
have known before 1984. Well, contrary to Stanton Friedman's claim, this date
was already known to outsiders and not just insiders as Friedman claims.
>From page 101 of the 1982 MUFON PROCEEDINGS, William L. Moore, "The
Roswell Investigation: New Evidence In The Search For A Crashed UFO" writes:

     "On September 24, he [Bush] and the new secretary of
            Defense, James Forrestal, met with President Truman
            at the White House - a meeting which resulted in
            Dr. Bush's appointment as Chairman of the new Research
            and Development Board of the National Military
            Establishment."

And hold and behold, every outsider at that 1982 MUFON Conference knew
also of the "special date" that Friedman in 1996 claims could only have
been known by "insiders" before 1984.

I simply use the above examples to illustrate that Stanton T. Friedman's
claim of "insider information only" in his new book and as re-stated in
this mailing list is full of holes. The only real surprise that came to
most outsiders was Menzel. Many Ufologists already had pencil connections
to the alleged MJ-12 people, but not Menzel, so claims Friedman. Yet, by
Friedman's own admission the Bush-Menzel friendship and loyalty hearing
connection was already in his files before the arrival of the Shandera film.
If it was in his files, it may well also have been in any of his associates'
files and their associates' files. Since there was a strong interest in
Wilbur Smith, anyone researching Bush could have stumbled across Menzel,
or simply have used the more direct approach and filed an FOIA with the FBI,
something that was being done by many "outsiders".

As I hope I have illustrated above, the "insider information not known
to UFO researchers" arguments are baseless in fact.

To see how an "outsider" could have arrived at a working
script of MJ-12, let's take a look at Bedell Smith.

On "special date" Aug 1, 1950, date of Walter Bedell Smith's naming to
MJ-12. If one was considering Bedell Smith for a role with MJ-12 based
on his future appointment to the CIA effective Oct 7, 1950, one just needed
to check and see what dates Bedell/Truman had met together retroactively
from Oct 7, 1950 and analyze the options. I certainly would not have picked a
date he did not "meet" with Truman. According to Friedman, the only date
in the first 10 months of 1950 that he met with Truman was the Aug 1, 1950
alleged date of his MJ12 appointment. This date would of have to been the
only date, the only choice, for either an "insider" as Friedman claims,
or an "outsider" which Friedman claims could not have known.

Friedman's logic in presenting his list of only "insider" information
possible is fallacious. The argument is claiming a negative.
"no outsider" could have known. I have shown that "outsiders" could have
known and in fact are on record as knowing and being in possession of
much of the critical data regarding Menzel, Twinning and Bush years
before the MJ-12 film arrived at Shandera's mail box, including the entire
1982 MUFON CONFERENCE "insider information special date of Sep 24, 1947",
courtesy of Bill Moore of the 1984-1987 Moore-Shandera-Friedman dream
team.

Let me repeat my original question. Is there anything in the new book that
establishes multiple, independent, direct, link-by-link, verified chains
of evidence to show that MJ-12 is real, or that establishes the
genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?

Ed Stewart
-----

> Believe what you want.. my mission in life is NOT to try to convince the Ed
> Stewarts of the world..

Whenever you have evidence other than proclamations to support your
belief systems, I am sure Ufology would be very grateful. I know I would
be.

> You have perhaps forgotten your adamant insistence that all TS documents
> had to have TS control numbers..

I haven't forgotten at all. At the time I responded to your specific
request:

   "I just wish Ed would put some data on the table... like documented
	protocols about TS documents requiring control numbers."
					Stan Friedman
					circa 8/11/1996

 And I hope that anyone that was following that thread remembers the
evidence I presented to support my position. Facts don't disappear
because you make a proclamation. They are still there.

> despite having copies of a number that didn't in your hands?? Forget it. STF

If I recall, you were the one claiming to have copies in your hands. I
never claimed to have copies of TS documents in my hands that didn't
have TS control numbers. My position was clear from the beginning: A
lack of a TS control number in a Top Secret document controlled by the
Department of Defense was indication of a hoax document, or at minimum a
security breach. You demanded that I lay on the table the evidence to
support my position that TS control numbers were a requirement. I did.
And if need be, I can repost that entire thread to this list.

But to summarize the evidence that I posted which can be independently
verified by anyone, this is what the evidence supported:

	* Control Numbers are required markings on TOP SECRET DOCUMENTS.
	* Control Numbers are required markings on TOP SECRET Special Access
	  Program (SAP) documents, TOP SECRET Sensitive Compartmented
          Information (SCI) documents, and TOP SECRET COMSEC documents.
	* Not only are all TOP SECRET documents tightly controlled, but they
          are also sytematically inventoried and validated for completeness
          every 10 months.
	* One of the items requiring re-verification every year is that all
	  TOP SECRET documents have a serialized control number marking on the
	  document and reconciled with the TOP SECRET control registry.

My concluding paragraph was:

	An alleged TOP SECRET document or manual created in the 40s/50s would
have been systematecally inventoried and validated for completeness well
over forty/fifty times since then. The fact that none of the alleged
MJ-12 documents have serialized control numbers strongly suggests that
they were never brought under proper control as required by regulations
and directives under the authority of Presidential Executive Orders.
This suggests that the alleged MJ-12 documents were never under the
control of the President of the United States and the Executive Branch
of the United States and are simply bogus.

Ed Stewart
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone,
"There is                     | Perhaps acts second to some sphere
unknown.
 Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some
goal,
 -Salvador Freixedo-  ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man------