From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 15:46:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 00:26:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Intelligence, Tar and History [was: Billy
> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 03:58:34 -0500
> From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Intelligence, tar and history
> > From: KRandle993@aol.com <Kevin Randle>
> > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:19:00 -0500 (EST)
> > To: updates@globalserve.net
> > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Billy Meier - Another 'Guru's' Finale
> > >Are either of you aware of Kal Koroff's ties to the American
> > >intelligence community? So many investigators seems to have this
> > >connection. Might make one wonder about his objectivity. This
> > >association was determined during conversation with him during the MSNBC
> > >web promotion for his book debunking the Roswell incident.
> > > Gary
> > For crying out loud, this is a ridiculout allegation thrown around the UFO
> > community with too much abandon. It is one evidence of "arrival" to be
> > called an intelligence agent. Everyone in the UFO community has been
> > tarred with this brush, so everyone is an intelligence agent. Let's rein in
> > the paranoia people.
> > KRandle
Amen, Kevin, calling everyone an intelligence agent and
implying sinister motives is a way of putting aside what they
have to say. I have said a number of times ufologists all need
at least one book on logic and one on critical thinking in their
libraries. If such books were read and used by ufologists,
there were not be this morass of twisted thinking in the field.
Sorry, Gary, but I am going after you on a lot of these topics
which seem to be articles of faith with today's ufologist.
Gary's contentions below are mild compared to some, but
unfortunately they represent a trend. Let's not study UFOs.
Let's study government involvement. Everyone can become a
junior James Bond. But when we study this government
involvement let's make darn sure we don't go anywhere near
primary sources. Get your facts from third hand sources.
Sometime ago when this list raged with a debate how Top
Secret material was handled, I offered to copy a regulation
for those who wished to know about the procedures. Guess how
many takers I got: Zero. It was more fun to speculate or go to
someone's book or listen to someone who might have had a Top
Secret clearance once--although he really wasn't sure if he
did or not.
> You should be asking for the facts rather than stating that I would make
> a ridiculous allegation. I don't care if Kal Karloff arrives or not.
> I have never considered anyones' association with the intelligence
> community to being equivalent to being "tarred with a brush".
This is at least a start. However, what do terms like
"intelligence community" mean? A monolithic structure
of some kind. We have the CIA, intelligence in each branch
of the military, so why did we need DIA?
For years counter-intelligence was in a shambles. The reason
that so many of these people like Aldrich Ames are being caught
is that about five years ago improvement were made to
counterintelligence. They are just now paying off. Look at
how easy it was for Ames and others evaded safeguards for
years. Sure convinces me that the intelligence "community"
knows what they are doing. The great coups like the Fall of
the Wall and the Collaspe of the USSR are more evidence for an
all-seeing intelligence community. If they saw it, why didn't
they tell the political leaders.
> What I am interested in knowing is about the background of individuals
> writing and or promoting material in this field so I can better
> understand the players, their roles, the phenomenon and its history.
> As you are well aware the intelligence community - as demonstrated
> through historical documents obtained through declasssification process
> and the FOIA process has had a long and continual history of
> investigating the UFO phenomenon both through open domestic and foreign
> sources as well as covertly through human and technical means of survellance.
Yes, and these UFO documents are very small part of the
actual number of documents. However, if you get a book
that is on nothing but UFOs, it does seem overwhelming.
Go to the National Archives where much raw intelligence
is stored. It is like looking for a needle in a haystack
to find something on UFOs. Oh, yes, when you concentrate
the UFO material, it does looks impressive, but compared to
the intelligence production of some small secitons like,
US Military Liaison Mission in East Germany, it is nothing.
> This is not a ridiculous allegation and here are the facts of the matter:
> MSNBC held a online, public, internet chat for the promotion of
> Kal Koroff's book which essentially debunks the idea that what took
> place at Roswell was the crash of an extraterrestial craft.
> This event was promoted on the internet and on MSNBC television.
> (Hey, the guy has a good publicist). My guess as to the number of
> questioners was 10-15, with an unkown number of listeners. I know of
> another indivdual who I believe receives this mailing list that
> was also a participant in this public, online chat.
> During this public event I inquired as to whether
> Kal Koroff had served in the military or intelligence
> community in any capacity. He evaded
> this question after being asked it several times and
> responded that -like many people who work at LANL
> (Lawrence Livermore Laboratories) he
> had a security clearance. Again I asked several times
> whether he had served in the military or intelligence
> community and when a couple of other people also inquired
> he responsed that he had never served in the
> military and ignored the question about serving in
> the intelligence community.
> Then many other people also inquired whether or not he served/worked for
> the intelligence community. In fact so many people asked and wanted his
> answer that the online conference stopped on this point, with other
> people telling him to answer, stop being evasive or stop the chat.
> The people participating in the chat said he should not proceed until he
> answered the question.
Once again it is more interesting to know who this individual
is rather than what he might have to say. Maybe some of his
money came from CSICOP. So what? Do his arguments stand up to
examination?
> At this point he responded that he did consult for
>agencies of our government (which he would not name)
>in "anti-terrorism".
> It was also established at this conference that he had several
> people working for him doing his background
> research and that he was planning to establish a non-profit
> foundation to further his research. Also he
> stated that the funding for the research of his book came from
> "donations". He would not specify the names of organizations or
> individuals who had donated him funds. He also stated that he
> partially self funded his research.
And here I agree with Gary, why must Koff be
so evasive? My evaluation would be that the source
of his money may hurt his creditability with his target
audience. Otherwise, he maybe just a jerk.
Or perhaps he is a "disinformation agent," in which case
I will eat lots of crow....but I think not, because there
are not such animals as "disinformation agents." Seems to me
Kroff could catagorize his donations without releasing an
sensitive individual's name, if that were necessary.
> Now let us digress:
> You know Kevin some of us have been around - have
>friends or family that have served in the intelligence
>community.
There is that magic phrase again. Maybe you should consider the
intelligence failures of the last fifty years or so. Seems to
me "the intelligence community" is more like a giant political
turf warfare battlefield than anything as cohesive as a
"community."
> Imagine if we had to understand the history of WWII
> without knowing about Operations ULTRA, MAGIC, KONDOR,
> TRAMP, BODYGUARD, GRIFFIN, CANDY or CORNFLAKES.
Yes, and to hear the proponents tell it: they won the war.
So if we had ULTRA and knew everything, why did we have
Anzio, Salerno, the Battle of the Bulge, Leyte Gulf ("All
America wants to know: where are the fast battleships!?"),
and other excellent intelligence coups? I wouldn't be
seduced by these people who make wild claims about ULTRA
and other intelligence activities. Perhaps the Ultra people
did know everything. Perhaps the "green door," (ie obsessive
secrecy) got in the way. Or perhaps the muddle head command
staffs would not pay attention.
Or mostly likely: The intelligence people who *now* know
everything with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight were not as
sure of things when events were popping around them.
> Histories of WWII were written for many years without
> knowledge or understanding of the intelligence communities
> role. Many documents from WWII are still classified over
> 50 years later and may significantly change our understanding
>of that history.
> Not every former intelligence agent with an interest in the UFO
> phenomenon is a covert psych war agent serving as a
> disinformationalist.
Lots of good emotive terms here. Disinformationalist. Opsec
(Operational security) is one of the areas of poorest execution
for the military. How do you think the news media gets there
first? Well, when the Air Force goes to a third world country,
they book every luxury hotel room in the place. Makes it easy
for some stringer to alert the media.
Psych warfare. Yes, let's remember the "Hearts and
Minds" campaign in the great US victory in Veit Nam.
The psyops material I have seen was not particular
impressive. Now Madison Avenue; that is impressive.
Of course, that is not called psych warfare, it's called
advertising. Most psyops training material makes the point
that you must stick to the truth.
Why did people in the East listen to the Voice of America?
Not because of the platitude it transmitted. Because the
East Bloc media lied about how cold the temperature was
outside in winter. Amazing how little things destroy or enhance
creditability.
> However it has been documented that some members,
> active and former, of the Central Intelligence Agency worked in NICAP.
Well, that is easy Adm. Hillenkoetter was on the Board.
If you are talking about the Todd Ziechel's contribution
to history, you better take his ideas with a mountain of
salt. And, of course, COL Joseph Bryan, a psyops specialist
and the CIA'ers killed NICAP. Why did they not destroy
the files??? Perhaps if someone did a little digging before
all the major players are dead, they will find that Gordon
Lore goad the NICAP board into action against Major Keyhoe
because of the financially impossible situation. Of course,
when the Board did finally act, they did not find much of a
good odor about a disloyal subordinate like Lore. Worse yet,
he did not turn NICAP around financially.
I've seen letters from Dewey Fournet complaining about the amount
of time he was spending trying to get NICAP on a pay-as-you-go
footing. After being absolutely ruthless with those who had
a claim on NICAP, the Board was able to rid themselves of the
problem by turning it over the Acuff. So, NICAP went from
mismanagement under ufologists to mismanagement under a business
management company. Today, it is far easier to say the CIA
did them in than to look at declining public interest,
declining income, declining management, declining expertise.
Let's not do any research here; let's listen to hacks.
> It has also been documented that the APRO was mentioned in the Robertson
> report as an organization which should be watched.
No doubt they were on someone's watch list.
> A worker in the APRO
> furnished information on the Lorenzens to an intelligence agency.
That is the interpretation of Lorenzens. If so, why did it
not keep up with other agents. Lots of information was kept
on a lot of people, and there were indeed major abuses. What
was the reason for pointing out APRO? Because they knew the
truth? No. Look at the Robertson recommendation again.
> Intelligence agents questioned a WWII ace who saw flying
>objects weeks
> before Kenneth Arnold reported his famous sighting.
I think you may have your dates mixed up. But even so,
look at COL Friend's comments on the intelligence balloon
recovery teams that stayed in place after the Japanese
balloon bomb attack. I should hope that some one was
minding the store. I looked but have yet to find any evidence
of these little detactments mentioned by Friend.
> However, not everyone who has or has had a security
>clearance is a covert agent.
Well, I should hope so...considering some of the absolute
trash that is able to get security clearances. I know
because I helped revoke a number clearances for real
criminal types who should never have gotten one in the
first place.
> Some people who have served in the military and intelligence
> services pursue their own interests which came before their
> active duty.
> I understand Kevin you investigated for APRO before you
> joined the Air Force.
And I investigated for NICAP and APRO while in the military.
I was also on the list of foreign representatives for APRO
when I served in Korea. The only activity I stopped when I
joined the military was corresponding with the Soviet ufologists.
> Some people who have served in the military and intelligence
> services pursue an interest in UFOs and extra-terrestrials that
> arose from their service and continue that interest after leaving
> active duty, the aerospace writer Martin Caidin who recently died
> is an example in this category.
My interest in UFO was there way before I joined up as were
many if you ask them.
> Raymond Fowler served in the military and intelligence services
> and has pursued active investigation of the UFO extraterrestrial
> phenomenon for many years.
> Are any of these people tarred, I think not.
> Contact with with an extraterrestrial civilization might well be the
> most momentous event of human history. Can we really imagine that the
> intelligence community won't be involved.
I can easily. It is not of strategic or tactical
interest. Especially, not to the Air Force.
> Are we to imagine that the
> SETI project which is attempting to make contact with
> extraterrestrials doesn't at least have a liason from the
> intelligence community. If they don't then I think I am
> not getting good use of my tax dollars.
Possibly, but even if they did--for what reason. Would
SETI find some Soviet device in space? That would, of
course, be of immediate interest.
> The first goverment investigators on the scene at Roswell
> were both members of different organizations in the intelligence
> community and that's no coincidence!
Why not? I assume you are talking about CIC and military
intelligence. Look at the FBI memo about being kept out
of the loop.
The FBI did a lot of the legwork in establishing the Fugo
Balloons and got little credit. The best early investigative
work in UFOs was by the FBI and not the bumbling military.
And then the FBI appeared to be cut out again.
> It also seems to be one of few primary facts
> that all of the investigators agree on whether they think it was a
> weather balloon, Mogul balloon, extraterrestrial craft or over-runs from
> an aluminized mylar plant which just happened to drift into Mac Brazel's
> range.
> The history of the UFO phenomenon is not bereft of the
> influence of the intelligence community and that history
> is being made today and will be in the future.
If the Roswell Report is the best the military can do then
UFO believers should feel very comfortable. Weaver and
McAndrew missed a lot of obvious places to look--the SAC
Daily staff diary for one or the 8th Air Force A-2 files which
they could not seem to find or the search at Maxwell which
missed half the historical keywords in their computer search....
Of course, I don't see much research going into likely
government records by ufologists....or into UFOs....there
is a lot of yarn spinning and speculation....not much
research....if that sound a little cynical....it should.
Cynicism, as someone once said, is the last refuge of an idealist.
Best regards,
Jan Aldrich
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