UFO UpDates Mailing List
From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 04:23:01 +0200 (MET DST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 23:42:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI
At 01:22 27-04-97 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:22:08 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez)
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI
>>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 04:54:35 +0200 (MET DST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI
>>>> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:21:59 -0500
>>>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>> From: jvif@spacelab.net (John Velez)
>>>> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Congratulations Steven Greer & CSETI
>=======================
>I originally wrote,
>>>> I reiterate, Greer is backed by big money. If he is "investing"
>>>> anything, it's someone elses $. No one but Greer and a few of
>>>> his cronies know how much was spent and with whom. I expect
>>>> some accountability from people who *designate themselves*
>>>> (my representative) in front of elected officials. Doesn't
>>>> this bother anyone else? He set himself up as 'the peoples
>>>> rep[resentative' in Washington!
>Hi Henny, hi All,
>Henny, I'm going to respond to your comments because there are many
>Europeans on this list, and just in case any of them share your
>"Hollywood" ideas about Americans and their "values" I offer this
>response to you for your (and their) edification.
My comments about money and influence were not based on
a 'Hollywood' idea of America. For your edification they
were based on first hand experience in Europe.
>Henny wrote,
>>About Greer.
>>Greer may not be the electorally chosen representative
>>of the UFO field, but I can't remember any election.
>That was one of my points Henny. Had Greer openly solicited the
>participation of others in the field he would have garnered much
>more support than he has even now. Voting on things and including
>others' oppinions and points of view is what "ideally" democracy is
>about. Dictators appoint themselves, that's not how we like to see
>things done on our end of the rock.
I and the rest of this list know enough about politics
to have to read stuff like this. Greer apparently has
enough support already from others who are involved
in UFOs to be influencing politicians.
>>What Greer does is on his own initiative, because he
>>thinks what he does is important.
>That's an open question Henny. I'm still trying to find out if he
>thinks what he's doing is important, or if he's trying to "be"
>important. That's an important issue.
The same can be said of anyone's participation in this field.
>>Greer on his own has achieved what politicians in Washington
>>are listening to him and for the first time in 30 years
>>there is a serious chance of open Congressional hearings
>>on UFOs. This is more than 500 books, 5,000 UFO congresses,
>>15,000 UFO researchers and 1,500,000 e-mails per day have
>>achieved.
>Henny we *all* stand on the shoulders of those who came before us!
>Greer has added nothing new to 'ufology'. In fact the very data
>that he presents in Washington came from the sweat and dedication
>of those very individuals you so casually dismiss as impotent, and
>as having contributed nothing. Shame on you!
They have contributed a lot, but have been totally impotent
to gain credibility in established circles. Sad, but true.
>>Those who have problems with big money should consider this.
>>What Greer understands is that the UFO field does not
>>need more evidence, more cases and more debate, but more money
>>and more influence.
>You're kidding right? This is a patently uninformed remark if
>you're serious! If it's a joke, I'm not laughing.
I'm not kidding. There is enough evidence for the
existence of UFOs to fill a block of warehouses.
If you want to do research, find more cases. If you
want to influence politics, the issue is not evidence
at all. That is exactly what I mean.
>>In the real world, evidence does not matter, influence does.
>Yeah Henny, money talks, bulls**t walks! It's partially due to
>attitudes such as this that the world is so screwed up.
It seems you want to inform the establishment that UFOs
exist, which is almost impossible, and change the world
on the same day, which is totally impossible.
>>Political influence in Washington does not
>>come from books at Barnes and Noble, but from bringing
>>big money to the table.
>You may be 100% correct, but as an American I want to tell you
>what *I* think of influence peddling, and all the money
>peddlers in Washington.
I don't care what you think of them. (Text deleted)
>I'm an American "anyone" Henny. I didn't vote for Bubba! I think Bubba
>and Hillary belong behind bars along with all the others who share their
>moral values and outlook on life. Then maybe we can backtrack and put that
>gutter snake Bush into a cell along side the Clintons! They can
>swap Hillary for 'Kools' in the cell block every night after that for all
>I care.
Well, what can I say. John, you probably don't realize it but
attitudes such as these are the reason why all US military bases
were on a hightened state of alert on the day of the anniversary
of the Oklahoma city bombing. And two hundred thousand e-mails
were flying over the net to ask if there was a huge ET mothership
photographed by a satellite, because why else was NORAD on DEFCON-4
and what the hell DEFCON-4 was.
>>This is an environment where fancy dinners, limo's with
>>drivers and quid pro quo are part of everyday life.
>You just listed all of the things that "most Americans" think is
>wrong with the way things are done in Washington DC! Don't you find your
>own words offensive? I did! Or do you think that it's okay to do business
>that way? BTW, you forgot to mention prostitution! Some of these
>distinguished gentlemen of wealth, power, and influence that you admire
>so much have the morals and virtues of common thieves and muggers. But
>then I guess you'd just say that's okay too. After all, "Money talks,..."
Look, I know these things are wrong, any fool knows they are wrong,
they have always been wrong, they will always be wrong.
But if you think corruption in US political circles in anything
new you should read more history and get a sense of perspective
first.
The point is that things are as they are and you have
to play by the rules or you don't play. It's as simple as that.
I think your unability to cope with this aspect of reality
explains why you are not talking to Washington politicians
while Greer is.
>>By letting himself be backed by big money, Greer at least
>>shows that he is a man of the world and understands this.
>I'd like to take all of these "men of the world" as you call them,
(text deleted for irrelevance)
> Until this guy and his organisation start acting like a
>"part of the UFO community" he can't expect much in the way of support
>from grassroots guys like me. I don't trust him based on his own past
>words and actions. Tell me why in hell I should trust him now!
So you have already defined for us who the so called "UFO community"
is and what it should do. Well, so much for democracy. I'd say
stick to your grassroots.
>The point of your e-mail seems to be, "Hey man, this cat is a real
>swinger who has a lot of the right grease and knows how to play the
>game, we should all just jump on the bandwagon and back his play"
Let him play, not back his play. If you have read my earlier
mail carefully I said you should not try to stop him but correct
his errors when the attention of Congress and the media
are there. Getting Washington to listen to abduction stories
etc. is difficult enough.
__________________________________________________________
/ Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \
Henny van der Pluijm
hvdp@worldonline.nl
Leiden, The Netherlands
\___________________________________________________/
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