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From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:57:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 19:54:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Nightwatch Online - Discussion with Velez

My respects to my friend the Duke, but I believe he's missing the
point.

>From: Peregrine Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Nightwatch Online - Discussion with Velez
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

> Gawd strewth, spare me days. I didn't say Javier PdeC MUST react to

> *anything*. I said that if he HAD had a change of heart (however
> this
> may be established) then those inclined to believe he was abducted
> on
> the night in question would have a small piece of circumstantial
> evidence on their side. (Imagine *that*! "SKEPTIC RECANTS! Dread
> Duke
> Mondoz supports Linda case!" would be as accurate an interpretation

> of what I actually said as the above from Greg.)


In an earlier post, wondering what de C's environmental beliefs might
be, our favorite nobleman noted:

>It would still be interesting to know what the answers really are,
>even if it would be somewhat unkind to ask why no one raised these
>questions before.

So the point is that the worthy Duke, from the vastness of his Welsh
fortress, does in fact believe that de Cuellar's environmental record
might just possibly provide evidence (even if only a small piece) in
the Linda case.

And it's exactly this that made me exasperated enough to call Peter
"naive." He then suggested I might be "defensive," but this is not my
problem at all. I'm just tired of seeing abudctions discussed without
proper data. Peter's impish commentary depends on an unstated
assumption, namely that abductees change their behavior in ways that
correspond with what they believe the aliens have told them. There is
no evidence for this. There are no scientific studies (or at least
none that I know of) about abductees' reaction to their belief that
they've been abducted. But there's plenty of anecdotal information,
and from what I've picked up from meeting many of the abductees Budd
Hopkins works with, and from attending support group meetings, I'd
say that abductees react to their abductions in a variety of ways.
Some wholeheartedly embrace the aliens, and believe everything they
think they've been told. Others don't go that far, but still feel
that their abductions were a significant, life-changing experience,
one that forces them to reconsider everything they believe.

Others, however, simply learn to get on with their lives. And some --
one published source that makes this clear is David Jacobs' book --
fiercely resist accepting anything they think the aliens do or say.
You don't have to believe abductions are real to recognize that this
spectrum of reactions exists. You just have to listen to a large
number of abductees talk.

This, then, is the data,  pending scientific study. Many of Hopkins'
abductees believe they've had environmental messages from the aliens.
Not many, to the best of my knowledge, have acted on them. On the
basis of this data, there is no way to predict how any abductee will
react to a believe that he or she has received these messages.
Therefore there's no way to predict how de Cuellar would react. And
because of that, there's no way that his environmental record could
possibly provide even circumstantial evidence suggesting that he does
or doesn't believe he's been abducted. Any environmental position
would be consistent with past abductee experience -- even fierce
anti-environmentalism, which de Cuellar (or any abductee) might move
towards, as a way of denying and resisting abduction beliefs.

What's especially sad here is something obvious that Peter missed. De
Cuellar, after all, was not the only abductee allegedly involved with
alien environmental messages in the Linda case. There's Linda herself
-- who, unlike de Cuellar, admits that she's an abductee, and is
right here on this list, available for questioning on her own
environmental beliefs. Her involvement, in fact, was much stronger
than de Cuellar's, since she's depicted in "Witnessed" as the aliens'
environmental agitator. She presents de Cuellar with a dead fish, and
declares "Look and see what you have done!"

So is Linda an environmentalist today? She should correct me if I'm
wrong, but I haven't noticed that she is. And I HAVE heard her say
that she remains as politically and culturally conservative as she
was before her 1989 abduction. From other things she's said, I'd
place her firmly in the camp of those who resist what she believes
are her alien experiences. I don't think she's going to yield an inch
to the aliens -- she wants to live her life on her own terms, and is
horrified by everything she's come to feel the aliens have done. So
what about it, Peter? Will you accept Linda as an example of an
abductee who's not visibly influenced by the environmental messages
she believes she's not only received, but helped the aliens convey?
And if she wasn't influenced, why should de Cuellar be?

(And yes -- I know, even though Peter didn't mention this, that de
Cuellar mentions in a letter he allegedly sent to Budd that he's
going to devote his life to things the aliens told him, or words to
that effect. But he said that, or supposedly said it, in the first
flush of discovering what he believed were his experiences. It's
common for abductees to change their minds many times about what
their experiences mean, and if de Cuellar -- assuming for the moment
that he really believes he was abducted -- first rushed to embrace
the alien message and then backpedalled and decided he wasn't sure it
was valid, he would hardly be the first abductee to make such a
shift.)

This whole discussion makes me sad. If we began from accurate
information, we wouldn't have to have it.

Greg Sandow