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From: "Clarke Hathaway <earthwrk@doitnow.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:02:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:02:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s


> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:51:30 -0500
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s

> >From: Paul Devereux <DevereuxP@aol.com>
> >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:42:46 EST
> >To: updates@globalserve.net
> >Subject: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s

> >John Velez  wrote:

> >>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:41:16 -0500
> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s

> >>Until about six years ago I had rationalized my lifetime of
> >>unexplained experiences and memories as OOBE's (out of body
> >>exp's) vivid nightmares, and several unexplained objects (UFO
> >>sightings) I had seen in the sky (throughout my life - beginning
> >>in childhood) that simply didn't fit in with anything -I- knew
> >>of...

> ><mega-snip>

> Hi Paul, hi All,

> Paul wrote,

> >Thank you for your honest account. Most revealing.

> Please don't take this remark personally Paul as it is not
> directed at you specifically. The reason I wrote that e-mail is
> because I'm a little tired of having 'other people' tell me what
> I have experienced.

<snip>

Hello John and my compliments to the list.


> We all have scoop marks as well. I could go on here quite a bit
> about the "physical" aspects of this that have convinced me that
> something real world, real time, and physical is not only
> interacting with us, they leave behind evidence on our bodies.

So do I John, though I believe that you well know that I have a
decidedly different view of this than yourself. It is not
incumbant upon me however to attempt to invalidate your version
of reality. Paul approaches my position with his stated opinion,
but I don't feel that his view is quite broad enough.

> >What you describe is in fact a shifting from one
> >frame of reference(OOBE) to another (alien abduction),

> No. You are trying to put the round peg I put out there into a
> square hole!
> I told you that I am an experienced meditator. Over seventeen
> years worth and (daily) I am -very- familiar with altered states.
> Some (not all) of what I recall happened in the light of full
> waking consciousness. It is why those memories never left me.
> They left a deep impression, and defied explanation for almost
> all of my life. Take my word for it Paul, I'm capable of telling
> the difference between an "altered mental state" and a "real
> event", why is that so hard for people to accept? Everyone
> insists that, "Well John, after all, it -must be- something
> else!" Well it's not! It's exactly what I say it is, I was there,
> I saw, I felt, I heard, I remembered! Unless you have a
> convincing arguement why I shouldn't trust my own faculties and
> senses then I stand my ground.

John, Meditation is not synonymous with what in my view is
occurring. In point of fact John, most of us humans serve to
severely limit what we really are. We are multi-dimensional
beings John and each component is interrelated and connected.
What effects one component necessarily has some effect on the
others.

I have had extensive, long term experience with meditation. I was
first introduced to the concepts of Zen while a five and a half
year old child in Japan. That was in 1948. Soon after arriving
there, I was enrolled into a school of Juijutsu with an
instructor (sensai) who spoke no english. Needless to say I soon
learned Japanese!

I digress however. I was initiated into Transendental Meditation
in January of 1970. While the altered state one achieves is
certainly profound, it is only a mere step towards what one
experiences in more esoteric practices. You see John, I AM also a
near life-long student of metaphysics or the occult in some folks
terminology.

Therefore I came to recognise the phenomena for what it really
represented during a period of intense visitation of more than a
year in duration. These were sometimes followed with bruises,
scratch marks as well as incidents of sleep deprivation. I must
stress how- ever that at no time did any of the phenomena occur
in third dimensional reality. I found that I could interact (with
recall) with the perpetrators of the events while in that state
between sleep and fully awake. During one episode for instance, I
was being pulled up out of my body by a tall Gray who had a hold
on my forearms while he was streatched down toward me through the
ceiling above. He gave off a distinct feeling of surprise when he
realized that I had become aware of what he was up to when Julie
told me to lie back and he wouldn't be able to pull me up.

I can assure you that these beings though not physical, can and
do cause minor physical effects. A short list would include sound
(like unseen footsteps) as well as small objects moved in rare
examples.

> If I thought that what I remembered was a purely psychological or
> spiritual issue you wouldn't know me and I'd be happily babbling
> away to some shrink about it. But that's not the case Paul. I'm a
> (fairly) sane, stable and self actualizing individual and I
> -know- what has happened to me and what I have remember for all
> my life as real but unexplainable events.

I AM puzzled why you would apparently assume that you would be in
need of psychological counsel after experiencing something that
is easily explainable in parapsychological terms?  There is a
paradox here John. I fail to understand how people are not in the
least taken aback by a story concerning a young mother who
relates that she was physically 'floated' out of a 12th storey
apartment through a locked, solid, plate glass window and then up
into a waiting flying saucer above.

Forgive me John, but in my view the person who believes such a
thing is the one most in need of psychological counseling. I
guess that would have to include some rather well known
researchers wouldn't it?

If an Alien culture has the means to alter the molecular
structure of an object in order to pass it through solid barriers
and given that it is more in the interest of these beings to
maintain a covert presence so as to operate undetected, why on
earth would they have 'floated' this women through a plate glass
window and then up into a saucer waiting above where everyone and
their mother could observe them? Sorry, doesn't make much sense.

My point is ... wouldn't it be more likely that they would have
simply 'beamed' her up through the intervening structure above
directly into the ship?

> Why are UFO/alien "real events" any different from any of the
> other "real events" in my life? I remember them both the same. It
> is only 'other people' who make a distinction between them, not
> me.

Well, I understand your question and sympathize with your
feelings.The truth is, they are both real. My question to you is:
Why do you persist in limiting your perception? You are only
serving to limit yourself. It is obvious to me that there is much
more going on with John Velez than John himself realizes. ;-)

> >moreover, you came to make that shift because of influence from
> >outside (you were given "the pattern"), from someone who may not
> >have a clue about what this experience is like from the inside.

> You know Paul, this one is just a thinly disguised insult.

I don't necessarily agree John. I believe that Paul is attempting
to honestly explain something with only partial tools to work
with. I don't feel that he is trying to insult you at all. Nor AM
I.

> 1. I am not now, nor have I ever been a 'follower' or 'easily
> influenced.' I am a very headstrong and self-directed individual
> with healthy and functional critical abilities.

Sometimes John, this attitude can act to our disadvantage. I
don'tread anywhere in Paul's commentary anything at all about
leading vs. following. By way of contrast, what I see Paul
attempting to say (from my vantage point) is that during your
experience (in light of my own) you bought into the experience as
constituting one occurring within a 3rd dimensional framework.
This is not surprising as that was and is these beings intentions
all along. They are master manipulators and powerful telepaths.

> 2. I remember "grey men with big black eyes" since I was a small
> child. I'm 49 where was your "outside influence" coming from in
> the early fifties? About the wierdest thing I was exposed to back
> then was Andy Devines cat "Midnight"  He used to dress it up in
> strange costumes and then strap it to a turntable and spin the
> cat while he played music!  If you're telling me that Midnight
> the cat is the basis of all my abduction related memories you may
> have an arguement, it -was- a pretty disturbing thing to see. <G>

Yes, me too! I AM 54. I recall extremely disturbing dream-reality
as occurring during the years we lived in Japan. I suspect today
that I experienced abduction events perhaps beginning there. The
thought just occurred to me that if this is true, what part if
any did my introduction into altered states of consciousness have
to do with these circumstances?

In relationship to ole Andy Devine, I used to get antsy when he
would invoke the frog on the "Buster Brown" show with "Plunk Your
Magic Twanger Froggy". It was the upcoming image of "froggy"
saying "Hi Yuh Kids, Hi Yuh". The image of that frog bouncing
around was always unsettling to me. Interesting. I have never
related that to anyone before. <grin>

> 3. No-one "gave me the pattern." When I read the accounts of the
> abductees for the first time I recognized it immediately [from my
> own] lifetime of experiences and memories. Nobody put it there or
> suggested it! IT WAS ALREADY THERE PAUL. That set of memories was
> in place long before I ever encountered abduction related
> anything.

> 4. We're not (all) as gullible as many would like to think.
> Besides I'm not an easy mark for that kind of crap.  Among my
> functional equipment I also have an excellent bullshit detector.

Again. You have more than one body. They co-exsist just out of
phase to one another in the same space. They are all
interconnected. If the psychic impression lets say in the astral
is powerul enough it is easily possible if not probable to
experience like effects in the 3rd dimensional reference.

I must respectfully submit that if what you say above were in
fact true John, it would not be possible for you to be an
abduction experiencer. Period!

> But to answer your "real" question,...

> No, Budd [nor anyone else] didn't "plant patterns" or try
> influence me. I recognized the elements of the "pattern" Paul
> because they -happened to me- not because I read it or heard it
> somewhere.

I can't state that Budd Hopkins planted patterns John. But for
thesake of honesty here, I have witnessed on video tape, Budd
Hopkins employing leading questions to abduction subjects.

> >Like you, I do. And like you, the entities I have seen look solid,
> >can touch me (and bite and scratch) and I can touch them. But
> >even your experience of touching something solid in "real, waking
> >life" is a mental effect, John. The experience is put together
> >inside your brain.

> OK, then let me hit you in the mouth as hard as I can with a 38
> ounce Louisville Slugger and then on our way to the hospital you
> can tell me [if you can] what part of the experience was just
> something that was "put together in your brain!" <G> From my side
> of the fence it's a fair analogy.

Perhaps your famous temper (another result of wayward attitude)
is getting the better of you here John. You would be far better
served by realizing that you are NOT omnipotent nor do you have
very many answers when it comes to these subjects. I find your
comments as above to Paul as unfortunate and based upon a lack of
understanding on your part. This kind of behavior is sad.

Again. Yes your experience(s) were and are real. I believe that
just as I accept that mine are. I don't believe that anyone is
attempting to steer you otherwise. In my view however, it is your
perception of the events and your understanding of them that is
wayward here. Perhaps if it were otherwise, you would come to
find that you are able to control the flow of these events far
more effectively than you have heretofore dreamed possible.

> >Now, I don't know what these entities truly are, I'm keeping my
> >powder dry on that issue,

> Prudent,...smart!

Translated:  He hasn't yet invested enough time into the research
thereof in order to arrive at any diffinitive conclusions.

> >As for the physical body being visible when in an OBE state,
> >that's by no means always true. I have just completed a survey
> >of the OBE literature, and quite a few of the leading lights
> >in OBEs or "astral projection" (that's the Theosophical belief
> >frame for the experience, now a bit out of date) never could see
> >their bodies. Their beds seemed empty.

> On a wall about four feet away from me are a few certificates
> that I've picked up along the way. One of them is a letter from
> the United Lodge of Theosophists. I was a student and a member
> for some seven years.

I cannot help but state that such letters and/or certificates of
attendence are easily aquired John. One merely attends. The key
thing here is what one absorbs and is capable of putting to
practical use. I AM sorry John, but based upon your statements
above, I shall reserve my opinion as to the veracity of the
stated education. It would seem moreover that given these
circumstances you would display a bit more understanding than you
have.

> When I said in my last post that what was happenening to me was
> "abduction related and not what is taught or described by the
> mystics it is based on an -intimate- and broad knowledge of the
> material. Like I said Paul, I -know- the difference. No cigar
> here either.

I AM not buying this John, though in your mind you quite possibly
believe that you have a firm grip on what composes these events.

The proof is: John are you capable of providing any concrete
evidence to display where you are right and anyone with a
different view is wrong?

I ask straight out John, are you capable of controlling your abductions
and causing them to cease?

> >As for physical marks, well, I think they could be explained by
> >several approaches.

> The one that is always conspicuosly absent is, -we are telling
> the truth and we got them where and how we say we got them.- It's
> amazing how -that one- never makes it to the table.

Come on John. 98% of abductees and more researchers than I care
tothink about take the easy explanation out. That is exactly what
the beings that perpetrate these events desire John. In buying
into that and not seeking to realize your potential, you are
furthering their ends. Nice job!

> >But one, at least, is a form of stigmata.

> Show me just one example of "stigmata" that leaves a permanent
> crater in your skin! Show me just one "stigmata case" that mimics
> -any- of the marks found on the bodies of abductees.

Yeah, I still have a permanent 'crater' in my skin too John. If
you would do a basic study upon the Etheric, Astral and Physical
bodies and their interrelationship, you should soon come to a
realization of how something psychically traumatic can be
experienced in the Astral and result in physical symptomology.

> Also, "stigmata" by definition 'appear' disappear, and then
> reappear again. The marks on our bodies appear overnight and
> stick around for a lifetime. I think comparing what we have to
> "stigmata" is a case of 'mistaken identity'

A poor example I would agree.

> >In tribal societies, as I have also written elsewhere on this
> >list (I do hope you catch some of this stuff, John - it is relevant to
> >you and your co-experients), the shaman can sport marks and wounds
> >he claims were inflicted on him my spirits while on his out-of-body
> >journey. I have seen some of the anthropological photos of this.

> I guess if you gave me enough psilocybin, or kava-kava root I'd
> pick up a few marks myself! <G>

I also have an interest in anthropology and have come across
evidencesimilar to that Paul is referring to. This is not to
suggest that current anthropological theorum can serve to supply
a convenient answer to the seemingly inexplicable riddle of
abduction events/experiences and attendant physical effects. It
cannot. Nor do I believe Paul is suggesting in anyway that the
mechanism that results in physical marks upon the shaman being
understood. Not all shamanistic journying is accompanied or
predicated by the usage of mind altering substances.

> >What you describe shows quite clearly that you are prone to these
> >states of consciousness, John, but that of course does not make
> >your * experiences* any less valid or realistic.

> For someone who has never met me that's a pretty heavy diagnosis!
> How on Gods' good earth could you possibly know what I'm "prone
> to" or not? Do you freelance on the psychic hotline?

I will disagree with Paul's terminology "realistic". This would
indicate that the event itself constituted something other than
real. It shows that perhaps he is on the path to understanding,
but so far has not realized it.

These experiences are REAL! PERIOD!

What is not being clearly seen or recognised by many ... is the
frame of reference of that reality. Once one comes to a semblance
of understanding concerning this, one becomes capable of
exercising a greater degree of control over what is occurring.

> >It is such a pity so few people seem to want to know of the middle
> >way between naive literalism and out-and-out debunking in these
> >matters.

> I like that Paul! Nice capper. First we're all mis-interpreting
> our experiences, then - we are all such easily influenced and
> weak minded boobs, that possibly all of our memories are the
> result of "outside influence" and now,. . . the creme de la
> creme,---we're "naive"

We all have a right to the reality which we create.  ;-)

> What a neat package! Misunderstanding, easily influenced, and
> naive! Paul my man, if it helps you to get through the night to
> believe that, then you have my blessings. If you really believe
> it, you have my sympathy.

> If my experiences were "something else" then I'd simply say so.
> My experiences and memories are what they are and what I have
> reported. You can dance around it all you want, it just is what
> it is. Maybe one day you'll consider including in your list of
> possible explanations, "we are simply telling the truth and
> reporting what we remember."

> I came by my views the hard way Paul. I was not prepared to
> accept alien abduction as an explanation either, but after
> recieving confirmation after confirmation of the physical nature
> of these encounters it's hard for me to deny it. I've seen
> classic flying saucers close up in broad daylight with other
> witnesses. I'm not a "UFO believer", like Mr S says, "I'm a UFO
> -KNOWER!"

John, I have to date seen NO documented evidence except with one
possible exception that would suggest that Abductions have any
relationship to the incidence of UFO/Flying Saucer sightings.
While I concede based upon that lone exception plus a provisional
second that such rare occurrances have happened, I suspect that
the bulk of these events are occurring as described by me above.
That is, that they constitute events occurring within the Astral
plane.

I have an effective modality of dealing with these visitations. I
really don't give a flying fig for any negative commentary by
would be detractors. I have something that works and I have
ceased to play the role of victim. If anyone out there can make
the same claim, then I congratulate them!

Clarke Hathaway