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From: DevereuxP <DevereuxP@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:33:09 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 03:24:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Jacobs on Abductions & O.B.E.s


Dear List:

John Velez supplied a forceful - if not intemperate - second
epistle on the status of his alien abduction experiences, which
he insists are physically real events. He deeply resents my
observations.
I will make just the following points:

Dear John,

*  John, one of the reasons you gave for distinguishing what you
believe to be alien abductions from out-of-body experiences was
that you never saw your physical body in bed when you were 'out'.
I pointed out to you that many an OOBE experient/ astral
traveller has reported that when looking back at the bed during
an OOBE, it appeared to be empty. That remains a fact despite
your ire.

* There are techniques for determining whether you are in an OOBE
state or not. But as you are having physically real
abductions,you won't need that knowledge.

* The "pattern" I was mentioning was to do with the
*interpretation* of the experience, not the experience itself -
you picked up the "alien abduction" interpretative pattern or
frame of reference from reading Hopkins' book. The experience
itself, which you did indeed already know about, is as old as
human consciousness. I can show you prehistoric rock art in
southern Africa that depicts the experience. To this day, the
!Kung of the Kalahari know of it. They call it "kia" and it
occurs as a result of their trance dances. They are not being
abducted by physical aliens in physical craft. What we now call
the alien abduction exprience was and is known to the human race
in many guises and from all time. The alien abduction frame is
only the latest literalist interpretation. The experience is old,
John.  The alien abduction intepretation is only a recent
obfuscation.

* I was not trying to psychoanalyse you! I'm sorry of that's how
it came across, but I would point out that I specifically said
that my comments were based *on what you said* in your first
posting on this topic. According to that, you have had OOBEs
since childhood, and you further have indulged in meditative and
occult exercises. You are therefore prone to these types of
experiences, and your history is typical. Unless you are lying,
of course, in which case I withdraw my observations.

* Putting in "<G>" does not make your image of shooting me in the
head with your pistol any less ugly. But it did persuade me to
now fervently hope that you are indeed actually being abducted by
physically real aliens, and that next time they don't bother to
bring you back.

*<G>


Paul