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From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:58:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:17:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 17:51:41 PST

Eine Kleine Klarkwerke! - or The Hynek and Larsen Postings Recap

Hello, gentle UpDates folk!


>Gary is, it is ever more apparent, determined to believe at any
>cost. Which explains, of course, his imperviousness to
>arguments based merely on evidence, experience, knowledge, and
>logic.

Interesting. I do remain impervious to YOUR arguments which
seem to be based solely on the fact that you knew Sherm Larsen!
It is almost quaint that you continue to assume that anyone with
a brain is going to find that argument telling.

>When I entered this discussion, I labored under the naive
>delusion that Gary was actually interested in learning
>something, even if it happened to contradict some bold, albeit
>uninformed, statements he was making. It is clear to me now, of
>course, that Gary was and is not interested in learning
>something he does not want to know.

I have learned a lot over the last few years, and I am learning
more and more with every message Mr. Clark puts on the list.
The fact that what I am "learning" is not acceptable to Mr.
Clark fails to disappoint me.

>That being the case, I have no choice but to view with immense
>skepticism any future claim he makes about something I know
>less about than I know about Hynek and Larsen. I urge the rest
>of you to exercise comparable caution, and I here abandon all
>efforts to liberate Gary from the ignorance, complacency, and
>paranoia that afford him such happiness. What follows is for
>the benefit of the rest of you.

I must be making progress since you now actively warn people
against me. I must refer list readers back to my "propaganda
techniques" message in reference to the penultimate line in the
paragraph above. Some might find it very instructive.

>Sherm, the rest of you will want to know, was a natural shuffler
>of paper. He was fond of documents and of filing them (one
>reason he was such a successful insurance agent, I might add),
>and a good thing, too. He kept neat files (more than Hynek ever
>did, which was not at all), and when he handed over the NICAP
>archives to CUFOS (he'd kept them in his garage, CUFOS then
>having no better place to put th em), they were in terrific
>shape. Sherm understood something that has escaped many
>(including me at times): that a significant proportion of good
>ufology is the proper storing of information.

Now this is quite valuable information, the fact that the former
CIC man was a document collector and preserver and that he wound
up with custody of the NICAP files, out of all the people who
could have wound up with such files. Yes, you could say that
was VERY interesting!

>It is, of course, a defensible argument, though hardly beyond
>dispute. In fact, it seems to me, "sighting reports" _have_
>swayed the public, which poll after poll attests is mostly
>sympathetic to the idea of UFO reality. What has not been
>swayed is elite opinion -- scientific, journalistic, and other
>-- which would make acceptance of UFOs actually mean something
>(e.g., significantly funded research). Short of a landing on
>Times Square, that probably won't change in ur lifetimes. What
>would immediately change opinion, of course, would be an
>official pronouncement, with relevant supporting documents,
>attesting to the authenticity of the UFO phenomenon and/or its
>extraordinary origins. If Sherm had substituted "elite opinion"
>for "the public," he would have had a better argument, I think.
>Possibly, that's the argument he thought he was making.

Mr. Larsen, thank God, did speak for himself in this regard and
his reasoning was sharp and clear, as was his analysis. His
paper stood out among the standard "ufological" material as a
redwood might have among Bradford Pear trees. I admire Mr.
Larsen greatly, as I do any true professional!

>Sherm's "unnamed source" was Allen, and those documents are
>available now in the CUFOS archives to any serious researcher
>who wants to examine them at the office in Chicago. While doing
>my research for the UFO Encyclopedia series, I went through many
>of them. To my intense disappointment, alas, the fabled
>Estimate of the Situation is not among them. All sorts of
>interesting Blue Book and other documents are, however.

Very interesting indeed and now I will be able to list Mr. Clark
as my source for the information that Hynek was leaking
sensitive government documents to the public through a former
CIC man who would remain his close colleague far into the
future.

>Allen was uneasy about possible retribution from the Air Force,
>since his acquisition of certain documents was not, shall we
>say, authorized. This is a nice way of saying that not
>everything he pocketed was a copy of something.

So, Dr. Hynek was not above a little intelligence work, on his
own account, if the cause was a good one. This is nice to know.

[The following refers to Mr. Clark's original "Babbitt"
reference vis-a-vis Mr. Larsen, and my comment on that
reference.]

>Well said, if I do say so myself. I didn't say, however, that
>he was stupid. The above description of Sherm, by the way,
>would be recognized by anybody who knew the man, as Gary -- as
>we all know all too well -- didn't. Gary's clueless about the
>real nature of Sherm Larsen becomes ever more profound.

Well, you can say I'm clueless all you want but it won't change
the connections many list readers are making right now!

Continuing, I said:

>>I ask.

>>Does your insurance agent collect documents from sources he
>>cannot name, documents the government does not make available to
>>John Q. Public?

And Mr. Clark said:

>Yup, if he's interested in UFOs, is an associate of Hynek, and
>is a document buff. Sherm was all of the above.

Yes, he was -- and a whole lot more, as we now know, don't we!

Continuing, I said:

>>How interesting that Mr. Larsen had been able to get these
>>documents, and that he could not name his sources. Now, let me
>>see, who was Larsen's good friend, from Chicago, that he would
>>combine with to found a UFO investigative organization? Why, I
>>think that was Dr. J. Allen Hynek, wasn't it. Hmm. I wonder.

And Mr. Clark said:

>With deductive powers like that, I'll bet Gary has been able to
>figure out at which horizon the sun will rise tomorrow.

Well, what else can you do with the obvious except try to spin
it, somehow, to your own benefit. But many list readers can see
through this canard. Actually, it's quite nice to have Mr. Clark
just own up. You see, there was every chance that someone ELSE
was supplying Larsen's information. It's nice to really KNOW, or
does Mr. Clark consider his own statements not evidence?

Continuing, I said:

>>I think you folks are going to really enjoy my book, with
>>research backed up as it is by facts, not the propaganda others
>>have offered on these subjects. This is just the tip of the
>>iceberg. Thank you for your attention.

And Mr. Clark said:

>Oh? You mean we've seen the tip? Hate to say this, guy, but it
>has yet to come into view. The way I see it, no tip, no
>iceberg.

Well, luckily, that is not really up to YOU to decide, is it?

Gary Alevy