UFO UpDates Mailing List
From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:46:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:27:08 -0400
Subject: Man-Made Flying Saucers - A Reply to Kevin McClure
Kevin McClure's "Secrets Or Lies"! An Answer!
Tim Matthews, June 1998
Dear Colleague,
I received this morning the latest McClure missive on so-called
"Nazi UFOs" entitled "Secrets or Lies? Investigating the Nazi
UFO legends" which, true to form, erects a number of false
arguments in order to knock them down. Despite the fact that I
have sent Kevin McClure several detailed and informative letters
on the subject he has quite obviously failed to read them.
McClure has significant influence with 'Fortean Times' magazine,
the largest "paranormal" and "strange phenomena" journal in the
UK, and will, no doubt, eventually use this forum to debunk my
work. What's the betting that he'll volunteer to debunk my book
when it comes out in several months time? Will future efforts be
so misleading?
Let's hope not!
Where are all the ethics and principles as noted in several
issues of "Abduction Watch" (which I subscribe to and actively
promote in my own magazine "UFO NEWS") here? They seem curiously
absent.
Just last week Kevin attempted to discourage the British UFO
Research Association from allowing Malcolm Robinson to speak at
their forthcoming London lecture.
This week I'm the target.
What a shame......
His letter, which runs into several unnecessary pages,
concentrates almost entirely upon debunking my latest fully
researched and referenced report entitled "Flying Saucers -
Secret History!" (in lower case) as well as having a pop at a
few other people including Bill Rose. McClure's main thesis
appears to be that the few of us interested in this subject
believe in a 'legend' that;
"depends on unproven claims, on individuals with extreme
right-wing beliefs, and on publishers and magazines keen to
profit from sensational material, even where there is no
evidence to suggest that it is true."
(The suggestion that there is money in researching man-made
flying saucers is a good joke.)
The first part of this statement is just nonsense, as are
Kevin's assertions about supposed 'standard' and 'conventional
history' texts - which might be better described as those which
tell people little of importance and which tell the half truth
and nothing like the truth.
Specifically, Kevin uses guilt by association to debunk my, and
others, research. His letter, no doubt mailed to all and sundry
(and to whom I have little chance of a gaining a fair hearing)
at a cost that I cannot hope to equal deliberately misrepresents
my report.
The FACTS are that in my "Flying Saucers - Secret History!"
report:
- there is only the briefest and negative mention made of the
author Renate Vesco.
- there is NO interest shown in either the so-called
"feuerball" or "kugelblitz" aerial devices.
- there is but the briefest - and negative mention - made of
the occult and paranormal lunacy surrounding the "Nazi" UFO
topic.
- there is NO use of extreme right-wing material.
- NO interest is shown in the Nazi Polar/Antarctic myth.
- the information, theories and other material made available
through "Vanguard Sciences" are NOT referred to at all.
- only a minority of the document actually deals with supposed
"Nazi" UFOs (!).
- the main part of the document deals with postwar developments
including those that are supported by, amongst other things,
declassified Intelligence documents.
- contrary to the misleading information put out by McClure,
there is no attempt to erect a specific theory that there is a
"secret history of the development of black and secret weapons
development under the cover of UFO sightings and explanations"
even though this might indeed be the case.
Other points:
Both Robert Jungks' acclaimed "Brighter Than a Thousand Suns"
(Harcourt and Brace 1970) and David Masters' "German Jet
Genesis" (Jane's Publications, 1982) note the existence of
German flying discs. This should not be taken as an indication
that I support the inclusion of the material ONLY that it is in
books that according to McClure "have only ever existed in the
occult, paranormal and Ufological fringes". So he's wrong.
He's hopelessly wrong about other things too. US Air
Intelligence Report 100-203-79, released in 1948, notes that the
Horten flying wing aircraft (advanced German technology) most
closely resembled the flying objects reported in the early
postwar period. This is but one document that says the same
thing and these points are made in my report and deliberately
ignored by McClure. He is NOT interested in an investigation or
in asking questions. It is more than clear that he has already
answered them in his own mind and that he retreats into out and
out debunking again and again. His interest in such trashy
publications as Michael X's "The German Saucer Story" (as
requested by him in a "search for reference material" booklist
towards the end of his letter) indicates once again that he is
attempting to debunk our work by falsely associating it with
such rubbish. Anyone who has bothered to read my report will
note that only one of the books in his list is referred to
(negatively) in my report.
'Sufficient caution' has certainly been exercised by Bill Rose,
myself and John Locker in our research into this subject.
Over 300 pages of US Army documents (released 1994 I think?) on
the subject of "UFOs" make it clear that German origins are of
the greatest importance. I can quote ad nauseam from these for
anybody who is interested but just one quotation from a Counter
Intelligence Corps (region 6) document dated 10th November 1947
is enough to be going on with:
"It is further suspected that the flying objects seen [in 1946/7
- TM] have been developed from original plans and experiments
conducted by the Germans prior to the capitulation."
(The document also says that "At the present time, construction
models are being built for wind tunnel tests" and that "This
canvass is to be made discreetly and to conceal our interest in
this subject". No wonder this information did not appear in any
of the much-vaunted 'standard' or 'conventional' texts!!!)
Incidentally, the AS6 V1 was a German circular wing aircraft
that flew in 1943/44. A photograph of this is shown in hard
copies of my report - again available upon request!
What about this from a declassified CIA document dated 19th
October 1955:
"Project Y is being directed by John Frost. Mr.Frost is reported
to have obtained his original idea for a flying disc from a
group of Germans just after World War Two".
(Projects Y/Y2, P724 and the WS606 were variants of flying discs
developed as part of a joint US-Canadian-British effort under
the influence of Dr.Walter Miethe, who worked at the BMW plant
near Prague associated with flying saucer developments during
World War Two).
So much for all the evidence for our supposed "claims" being
entirely taken from the occult, paranormal and Ufological
fringes!
I could go on, but I don't see why I should. This kind of
debunking is so typical of a UFO 'movement' that it is
increasingly difficult to take seriously - unless a massive
change in attitude takes place. It would seem that participants
are happy with their sad little "aliens or not" arguments and
occasional diversions into earth lights research. The TRUTH is
that our research is right on the mark.
Perhaps that's why it's so unpopular with some.
The questions should be:
1 - Could the US and its' colleagues have developed various
advanced/unconventional aircraft from 1946 onwards?
2 - Would the secrecy surrounding them have anything to do with
their ultimate use?
The answers to both these questions would appear to be YES. This
information does not necessarily exist on Waterstones'
bookshelves or on Microsoft Encarta '98. That doesn't mean that
we have no evidence or that new evidence cannot come to light.
Under Kevin's proposals, that no meaningful information on the
subject could emerge before perhaps the 1950s, then we should
all give up. Luckily, this is not the case and I suggest that
the answers are there.
For 50 years the majority of UFO "researchers" have been pissing
in the wind with alien stories on the one hand and personal
attacks, Mosleyesque scandal-mongering and debunking on the
other whilst a range of circular and delta-wing aircraft have
been flown under their noses. Perhaps THIS is the real story.
The big question now is;
Has the UFO community been actively discouraged from looking
into this or has it just taken no interest?
I suspect the latter to be the case and I suggest to the reader
that UFO 'research' and wishful thinking go hand-in-hand all too
often. In Kevin's case perhaps "wishing it away" might be a
better description.
No doubt UFO skeptics will rally to his defence.
Who really cares? I think we know the real truth of the
matter.................
Tim Matthews, June 1998.
RESEARCH NOTICE
Tim Matthews is a secret military aircraft researcher currently
seeking decent information on the joint AVRO-USAF Projects
variously known as P724,
WS606, Project Y/Project Y2.
All information handled discretely - confidentiality assured.
Information to:
matthews@zetnet.co.uk
or via:
The Secretary,
P.O.Box 73,
Lancaster LA1 1GZ.
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