From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:51:54 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:36:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Project SIGN Research Release
Re: Project SIGN Research Release
>From: Lynda Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:32:20 -0000
>Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:35:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Project SIGN Research Release
>>Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:05:35 -0800
>>From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich)
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Project SIGN Research Release
>>
>>
>>
>>In an earlier posting I mentioned the 1948 Project SIGN
>>Top Secret Estimate of the Situation (EoTS).
>>
>>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/nov/m03-004.shtml
>>
>>Since then, Wendy Connors, Project SIGN Research Center, has
>>agreed to release summaries of her research. (See Below.)
>
>>Alfred C. Loedding was the author of the EToS. He was an expert
>>in "low aspect ratio aircraft." In a 1947 document he is
>>referred to as "the engineer in charge of investigation of
>>unidentified flying objects." (Please note the term was used in
>>both early US and Canadian documents.) In Loedding's own resume
>>he refers to himself as the "Initiator of Project SIGN." He was
>>of German descent, spoke German fluently, and regularly had
>>German scientists at Wright Field to his home for dinner.
>
<snip>
>This is a very interesting release but one at variance with the
>facts that Jan has himself helped to uncover including AIR
>100-203-79 stating that jet-powered discs may be responsible for
>certain sightings and that the XF5U-1 had been 'operational in
>recent years'.
First of all, I did not uncover AIR 100-203-79 as I have pointed
out in a number of posts.
Second, AIR 203 is very careless about the word "operational"
>Not to mention all the other evidence that we now have and which
>has been ignored.
(Well, we shall take care of that with this post!)
see:
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/fig/1948air.htm
Among those which have been operational in recent years
are the XF5U-1 ("Flying Flapjack") developed by
Chance-Vaught, the Northrup B-35, and the turbo-jet
powered Northrup YB-49. The present existence of any
privately developed flying-wing type aircraft has not been
determined but one such aircraft, the Arup tailless monoplane,
was operational at South Bend, Indiana, prior to 1935.
Actually, fleets of "operational" Arup planes erupted from
South Bend in 1947 to points all over the world to cause the
"Great UFO Hoax."
As I have mentioned, AIR 203 confuses the V-173 with the
XFU5-1. See:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/nov/m11-022.shtml
The conditions under which AIR 203 was written are interesting,
General Cabell tasked the Directorate of Intelligence to
investigate "flying saucers" and their possible purposes and
tactics in July 1948. He told them to assume that UFOs were
real. Therefore, the conclusion were more or less forced. The
personnel in Air Intelligence Division were as characterized
by Michael Swords' as "anti-Saucer." If you read my article
on the Top Secret USAF Director of Intelligence Briefing to
the Joint Intelligence Committee JIC on Unidentified Aerial
Objects you would see that the Directorate of Intelligence had
abandoned the ideas in AIR 203 by the time it was printed and
distributed.
(BTW For the record, I did locate the JIC document, although
quite by accident, which some researchers have been seeking for
over 20 years. This shows the value of on site research at
the various archives.)
>Not to mention the vexed question of Soviet discs.......which
>researchers appear to have washed their hands of entirely....
The Air Force considered the question of Soviet discs from the
very beginning, and revisited this idea several times throughout
the years, 1947-9, 1951-3, 1955. It is interesting to note that
the air defense of the United States was named the Blue Book plan.
(See: Schaffel's THE EMERGING SHIELD, page 113.)
>The knowledge claim that Loedding, not the best or only expert
>in LAR craft by any means, 'would not' have known about disc
>planes is an interesting one and almost certainly unprovable but
>again if there were, as Jan claims, people with ("Q") clearances
>with information about which we are not yet aware, then it is
>more than possible that something along the lines of a disc
>project was in operation.
Not at all an accurate version of my contention. Loedding was
a recognized expert concerning Low Aspect Ratio (LAR) aircraft--
he was not *THE* expert, nor the only expert. However, he had
done considerable research on the concept. He had flown all
types of LAR models. He was also involved from the very first
in the UFO investigation.
Tim always convienently sidesteps bothersome items. Loedding was
not the only LAR expert at Wright Field. T-2 had done several
studies of the Horten and other aircraft.
General Putt, Col. Harold Watson, Col. H. McCoy, and Col Deyarmond
under the leadership on General McDonald sourced Europe looking
for German planes, devices, and plans. Watson formed an ad hoc
squadron of ME-262s, "Watson's Wizzers" or "Watson's Wizards."
They flew just about any German aircraft they could find--except
no one was foolhardy enough to fly the He-198 rocket plane.
Watson gathered up the actual devices and shipped them to
Cherbourgh where LTC Seashore was in charge of Project Seahorse
and arranged for the shipment to the US and the UK of the German
devices and pilots, engineers and technicians aboard the HSM Reaper.
During and after the War, McCoy and his men located and secured
huge caches of German documents of air technical interest.
McCoy had microfilm facilities set up and Europe and moved the
documents to Wright Field along with German experts to assist
in the analyses and utilization of the captured documents.
As pointed out previously, McCoy, Deyarmond, Goll, Seashore,
after the war served at T-2 (later named The Intelligence Division
and final named ATIC) at Wright Field during Project SIGN. Nearly
all were involved in Project SIGN at one time or another. Their
expertise and advice was available to Loedding, "the civilian
project monitor" and Capt Snider, the head of Project SIGN. In
addition Loedding was a German speaker and friendly with the
Germans at Wright Field.
The point was that these people would be very familiar with
1. Any German developments that could give raise to "flying
discs" reports.
2. It is highly unlikely--although not completely impossible--
that an LAR project at Dayton that might explain "flying discs"
would escape their attention.
Now with all this knowledge and expertise to draw from
Loedding still comes up with the ET idea as an explanation. The
Top Secret Estimate of the Situation was sent forward, that is,
it is approved by the Intelligence Division and AMC. Now Major
Dewey Fournet claims he read the document and was not at all
impressed with the analysis. However, that is not the point.
The point is that the people who had the major air intelligence
resources and knowledge at that time came up with this conclusion
and not the conclusion that the USAF DI came up with in AIR 203.
Did they know everything? Not by a long shot, and they
recognized this. McCoy sent requests to the intelligence agencies
in Europe to find the Horten Brothers and their associates and
question them. McCoy originated requests to other agencies
to see if any one had a flying disc device under development.
He requested that RAND do a study of the problem.
Now General Cabell makes much of two things when the:
1. The lack of intelligence personnel at the found of
the USAF. A lack that was compounded by the slowness that
Eisenhower implemented the transfer of intelligence assets
from the War Department to the USAF.
2. The lack of personnel with "Q" clearances, i. e. access to
nuclear information, in vital USAF agencies.
Now there are at least two places that might be doing
research in devices that might give rise to UFO reports
which information might not be available to McCoy and the
Intelligence Division of AMC, the nuclear propelled aircraft
project which Dr. Maccabee posted on--although there was an AMC
liaison officer present there--and the nuclear penetration
aircraft and devices which might have been compartmentalized
at the time. Now it should be easier to find out about
such projects. These are areas for further investigation.
(See: Project 1947: A Preliminary Report on the 1947 UFO
Sighting Wave, page 40 for a possible sighting of "parasite
planes" which might fit in this category.)
>And then of course there is the curious business of the AS Weyl
>article for Aeroplane magazine which stated (in 1948) that the
>XF5U-1 had been fitted with jets......and could hover...and
>ascend vertically much like those supposed 'UFOs'.
Joel Carpenter interviewed Charles Zimmerman, the designer
of the XF5U-1, and asked about the idea of fitting jets to
the XF5U-1. Zimmerman said the idea was ridiculous and
never happened. (Please note that if the XF5U-1 was the
cause of UFO reports why didn't Zimmerman who worked at AMC
and regularly conferred with Capt. Edward Ruppelt give such
vital information to Ruppelt?)
The XF5U-1 flying disc shibboleth has been around since 1947.
I see nothing new that Winchell and Taylor haven't already
claimed 48 years ago. The only new "proof" is a rather
unfortunate choice of words in AIR 203. Time to put this one
to bed.
>The Twining memo (23rd September '47) states that sightings of
>flying discs may be;
>"the product of some high security project not known to this
>command".
I have covered that above.
>I note also the total lack of mention of the 'Sign' document
>stating that in relation to flying saucers the US Navy had an
>X-plane built by Chance-Vought AND that research was being
>undertaken within the US Navy Engineering Division at that time
>into boundary layer control and low aspect ratio aircraft.
Of course, all SIGN documents were available to Loedding,
Snider, McCoy, et al. What is this suppose to indicate? They
obviously knew about the research.
>Did the marvellous Loedding know about this I wonder?
Since he was in SIGN from the beginning to the end, no doubt
he did. Now did he consider it significant?
>I note also his design for a flying disc, patented in 1952 (I
>think off hand), was perhaps the most clumsy of all of the
>postwar designs and hardly evidence of expertise. Compared with
>the later Frost designs this was very poor indeed.....
Unfortunately you make broad judgments on the basis of limited
evidence. Again, I did not contend that Loedding was the best
or only expert on LARs. LARs were a hot item of interest to
US Strategic Air Forces in Europe during the War. German
LARs came in for a lot of US intelligence interest. Loedding's
1952 patent was for a relatively inexpensive LAR for limited
private use. He had been experimenting with LARs and flying
wings for almost two decades at that time (1952).
>There is the evidence from Jack Pickett that discs were built by
>the US military and had been since then end of World War Two. He
>was told this by a USAF Intelligence Officer in 1967 and shown
>photographs too!
Yes, let's talk about Pickett. Essentially, what we have with his
testimony is a UFO report or rather an unidentified junked object
report. It is impossible say what he saw at the PDO yard. He has
no hard evidence to offer. What we have is more unsubstantiated
testimony hardly more evidential than a UFO sighting. However,
what we are to believe from this is that a device so secret that
almost no information is available on it is left in a PDO yard in
plain sight. Hmm....you will have to do better than that. Dozens
of such claims litter the literature of ufology.
George Filer told me that an article on Pickett's
unidentified junk may have appeared in a south Florida Sunday
newspaper supplement. Well, I have spent a lot of time looking
with no success when I was down there, it obviously was not,
however, the main goal of my trips. I also contacted Walt
Andrus concerning this article. He vaguely recalled something
like it, but did not feel it was earthshaking in content.
Barry Greenwood has one of the biggest collections of UFO
material in the world, he could not find such an article,
requests for help to Florida MUFON members to look for this
item have come up empty. I also have searched CUFOS' files for
this article. So far nothing. What we have is only a lead; not
evidence. Now Pickett also has testimony about a conversation
and a picture. Again, little substantiation. Interesting,
but not conclusive proof by any means.
>Although both Jan and Wendy Connors are to be congratulated for
>their excellent work they appear to have fallen into the trap of
>believing that everything they get from these archives is the
>whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Thanks for the congratulations, Tim, I know it probably hurt
your teeth to say that. However, you couple that with the
rather silly assertion that we believe everything we read or
come out of the archives. I suggest you substantiate this
contention. Rather, I recommend you look to your own writings
and your interpretation of AIR 203 for someone who is caught
in this trap.
>Forward sanitation of documents might be a problem.....
Nah....you don't really think that, do ya?
You may think that Wendy and I just fell off the turnip truck.
Let me assure you that is not the case. We are both veterans,
she served in the Air Force, and I in the Army for over 25 year.
I have been a Top Secret Control Officer,a Security Manager,
Communications Security (COMSEC) Custodian, held a critical nuclear
weapons position and worked on new systems development among others.
I did not just come to UFO research a week from last Wednesday
either. So save your condescension for someone else.
Neither do Wendy, Michael Hall or myself take any position
on the origin of UFOs. We are interested in research in this
area only.
Since you earlier claimed I ignored all your evidence, I will
take on another favorite of yours from the archives, Project
Silver Bug.
First off this is nothing new. In the 1955 USAF press release
concerning Project Blue Book Special Report #14, it is mentioned
that supersonic disc-shaped aircraft will soon fly around the
country. An artist's conception (also used in the Silver Bug
documents) was handed out to the press.
Big claims!
In WAR IN 1974 written about the same time by a LTC Riggs. It
concerned a future conflict is which ground effect vehicles
would battle Soviet tanks. The battle in Europe was lost because
the Allies could not see the advantage of upgrading their
force to the ground-effect and flying armor vehicle genre. Ah,
Riggs great propaganda!
In the Marine Corps Gazette was an article showing Marines
riding into battle in Avro Car-like vehicles. The only thing
to come out of this was a ground effects lighter which is in
limited use today.
In the Project Silver Bug document
http://www.cufon.org/cufon/silverbg.htm
please note how many time the words proposed and proposal
are used!
Project Silver Bug
SUMMARY
Purpose
This report presents factual technical data on A. V. Roe,
Canada, Limited, proposed development, Project Y2 (Secret).
This proposal is the second of two designs which can be
classified as radical aircraft designs. The ultimate purpose
of presenting this is two-fold; to correct the distorted picture
presented in previous releases, both classified and unclassified,
and to acquaint the intelligence community with the current
state-of-the-art facts thereby alerting them to any air
intelligence information which may become available indicating
Soviet interest in this specialized field.
Factual Data
Several news mediums have published articles concerning A. V.
Roe, Canada, Limited, Project Y2 (Secret) which, when
supplemented by the December Air Intelligence Digest article,
"The Flying Disk", present an inaccurate picture of the
proposed project. It was decided that a factual account of
this project would be presented, in the form of a Joint Wright
Air Development Center - Air Technical Intelligence Center, to the
intelligence agencies to correct any misgivings brought about by
the above mentioned articles.
Discussion
The subject of this report deals with a proposal for a new type
of aircraft by one of Canada's most progressive members of the
aircraft industry, AVRO Aircraft, limited, a member of the
Hawker-Siddley group. this project should in no way be
associated with any science fiction for "Flying Saucer"
stories because of its external appearance. the configuration
was a result of an engineering investigation into the solution
of a particular problem.
An examination of the AVRO proposal shows that the potential
for a very high performance weapon system exists in the not-to-
distant future. Although this proposal offers the USAF a
potentially advanced weapon system having both vertical
take-off and military performance capabilities, there are
numerous technical problems which must be solved before a
successful development can be realized.
The proposal is for the design of a supersonic research aircraft
having a circular planform and VTO characteristics. One version
provides for the use of several conventional radial-flow type
engines. Another unusual feature of this proposal is that the
control of the aircraft is accomplished by selective direction
of the exhaust gases which eliminates the necessity of
conventional aerodynamic control surfaces.
Conclusions
This proposal offers a possible solution to the USAF
requirement for achieving dispersed base
operations.
There appears to be no fundamental reason why this proposal
should not be ultimately result in a weapon system, however
there are several technical areas which must be investigated
before a full-scale development program is initiated.
Sound all too familiar, like the Dynasoar, the Sgt. York,
and about a dozen other systems that ate up billions of dollars
but did not make it into the Force. Working in the Directorate
of Training Devlopments at Fort Sill, I got to see plenty of
these big claims from new weapons system advocates. During my
tour the Pershing II Missile and the Multiply Launch Rocket
System (MLRS) came into the system, but there were others that
fell by the wayside. The claims for the failed system were just
as extravagant as those for the *proposed* Silverbug.
Please look at another Silver Bug document
http://www.cufon.org/cufon/flydisc.htm
in Air Intelligence Digest, December 1954. Please note the
picture of Silver Bug leaving a submarine. Among the retired
submariners around the New London area is an informal group
who call themselves "The Old Sea Crows." They got the biggest
laugh out of Silver Bug being launched from a submarine. No
one had seen even plans for such a thing.
The popular origin of the submarine/UFO connection was in
1950 when mystery submarines and a UFO flap seemed to appear
at the same time. Kenneth Arnold in several newspaper
interviews made much of this idea. Later, Capt Ruppelt would
investigate this possible link by trying to coordinate UFO
sightings with sightings of unknown submarines. The results
were inconclusive.
During a Senate Arm Services Committee hearing Senator
Albert Gore, Sr. would accuse General of the Army Omar
Bradley, Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff of military scare
tactics with reports of flying saucers and mystery submarines in the
press being used to get Congress to increase military budgets.
>So we are not especially interested in theorizing and we are in
>the process of making further FOIA requests based upon the
>numerous technical documents now in our possession.
I made a number of documents available for the FOCUS article.
Also, I made it clear that I did not agree that most of this
material did not make a clear case for secret weapons as the
explanation of the residuum of UFO report that are unexplained.
I agree that experimental aircraft and devices have been
reported for UFOs. However, the evidence for a broad solution
is lacking. Most material consists of not of evidence but
rather of leads which still need confirmation.
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
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