Aliens On Earth.com Resources for those who are stranded here Our Bookstore is OPEN Over 5000 new & used titles, competitively priced! Topics: UFOs - Paranormal - Area 51 - Ghosts - Forteana - Conspiracy - History - Biography - Psychology - Religion - Crime - Health - Geography - Maps - Science - Money - Language - Recreation - Technology - Fiction - Other - New Search... for keyword(s)   in Page Titles in Book Title/Author in Contents of Pages ---other searches--- Metacrawler Yahoo FAST Search Google Altavista Dogpile Inference Find Northern Light IWon.com MSN Search Las Vegas Sun Location: Mothership -> UFO -> Updates -> 1999 -> Feb -> Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document

UFO UpDates Mailing List

From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:15 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 09:24:12 -0500
Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document
>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:29:51 -0400

>>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document

>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document
>>>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400

>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800
>>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document

>><snip>

>>Friedman wrote:

>>>Let us get facts straight:

>>Ha! Fat chance!

>>>1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance
>>>although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret
>>>Restricted Data.

>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims:

>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret
>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and
>>Berliner when in the air force."

>>The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance.
>>Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top
>>secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that
>>he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for
>>Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS).

>><snip>

>The quoted words are indeed in the book. I repeat I have never
>had or told anybody I had a TS clearance. There was quite an
>argument with Richard Boylan about this. I have of course
>handled a great deal of formerly TS materials in my many
>archival visits. Bob ought to try a visit.

Oh, so you mean you _DIDN'T_ handle "materials classified top
secret and higher... when in the nuclear industry" as you
claimed in your book?

>>>3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5
>>>formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers,
>>>whether Ed Stewart likes it or not.

>>None of those five documents originated from the same place as
>>the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents
>>was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force
>>Headquarters).

>It is not irrelevant. There are many Air Force documents that
>Bob might think belong in RG 341, but aren't there whether he
>likes it or not.

I _never_ said the documents he found at the Library of Congress
belonged in RG 341.  This is a complete figment of Friedman's
imagination.  But I suspect he knows that, and is setting up
this straw man to distract readers away from his deceptions.

Again, with respect to TS control numbers, the documents he
and his other "research team" members found at the Library of
Congress, _years_ before the fakes showed up, most certainly
are NOT relevant to whether or not there should have been a TS
control number on the Cutler-Twining memo Moore/Shandera
'found' in RG 341.

If Moore or Shandera did not plant the Cutler-Twining memo in
the Archives, it would have been there legitimately, and the Air
Force _would_ have assigned a TS control number to it.  Yet it
has no such control number, which clearly suggests that Moore or
Shandera planted the document in the files, since even Friedman
acknowledges that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers
to examine the files following declassificaion reviews by both
Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel, reviews which
failed to turn up the Cutler-Twining memo.

Even Friedman has acknowledged that the Cutler-Twining memo was
planted in the Archives.  But he contends the document was
planted by somebody on the Air Force declassification team,
whereas I contend the most likely suspects are Moore and
Shandera.

Whether or not the documents the Moore-Shandera-Friedman
"research team" found at the Library of Congress have TS control
numbers has _nothing_ whatever to do with the absence of such a
number on the Cutler-Twining memo, which Moore/Shandera claim
was 'found' in RG 341 -- _not_ in the Library of Congress.
Friedman is throwing up a smoke screen in a desperate attempt to
make himself appear to be right, when in fact he couldn't be
more wrong.  He is clouding the issue with utter nonsense, which
is a clear indication of deception on his part.

>For example, the Library of Congress Manuscript
>Division in Washington has the papers of the first three Chiefs
>of Staff of the USAF namely Carl Spaatz, Hoyt Vandenberg (MJ-12
>member), Nathan F. Twining (MJ-12 member.). Much of this
>material was classified TOP SECRET or Secret. Gradually more and
>more has been declassified. The amounts are not really trivial.
>For example, in Twining's case there were about 120 Archive
>Boxes. One of these ,about Box number 120, had folders labelled
>TOP SECRET and EYES ONLY. In one of these there were two memos
>from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the President. One is
>TOP SECRET EYES ONLY dated July 13, l953.and is a "Memorandum
>for General Twining" The other is TOP SECRET and is "Memorandum
>for the Secretary of Defense" dated June 25, l953. Distribution
>"Wilson 2; Nash 2, Lay 1; Koons 1; President's file 1;"

Once again, this nonsense simply isn't relevant to the absence
of a TS control number on a document supposedly 'found' in RG
341.

Once again, it is little more than a desperate attempt on
Friedman's part to hide his deception.  Since he seems to be big
on labeling people with "mottoes," his seems to be, 'If you
can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.'
He's trying his best to baffle readers with irrelevant bullshit,
hoping they won't catch on to his deceptions.

>The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number
>on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is
>from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2
>memos from the same source and in the same file has no control
>number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG
>341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all
>are.

More attempts to baffle.  His remarks are attempts to distract
readers away from the real issues.

>>Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading.

>>>4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a
>>>NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the
>>>Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President.

>>It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was 'found'
>>by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the
>>other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS
>>control number assigned to it.

>This statement is FALSE. There are TS documents relating to
>General Twining in an official classified document repository
>(Library of Congress Manuscript Division for one) without TS
>Control numbers and whose provenance is certain. I published
>some. Cutler's office was at the White House NOT in the
>Pentagon.

This statement most certainly is _not_ false!

Moore/Shandera claim to have 'found' the Cutler-Twining memo in
one of the entries in RG 341 that contains top secret materials.
The documents in the entry in which the document supposedly was
'found' are filed by TS control number -- not by title, not by
date, not by subject -- just TS control number.

The _only_ way to access the documents is through the TS control
numbers.  If Moore or Shandera didn't plant the document in the
file and then feign 'discovery', that is, if the document really
was in the RG 341 entry legitimately, the Air Force would have
assigned a TS control number to the Cutler-Twining memo long
before it was turned over to the Archives, and the document
would display that TS control number now.

The fact that it does not show a TS control number is just one
of a long list of reasons to believe the document was planted in
the Archives, a conclusion to which even Friedman subscribes.

Whether or not TS control numbers were used on the records at
the Library of Congress is _completely_irrelevant_ to any
discussion of the use of TS control numbers in the RG 341
materials, and Friedman _has_ to know it is irrelevant, yet he
pushes this bogus 'explanation' almost as much as he pushes the
bogus MJ-12 documents.

>>The number would have been

>>assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of
>>course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force
>>declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for
>>Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter
>>to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for
>>declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel
>>both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have
>>surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. And,
>>by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first
>>researchers to review these records following declassification
>>review. How odd.

>>Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations.

>One thing is for sure, If one didn't go looking, the memo would
>not have been fund. But Bob, to the best of my knowledge, has
>never been to any archive even though, based in Belmont,
>Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, he is much closer to
>Washington, DC, than Bill and Jamie in California or me up here
>in New Brunswick. Bob, of course, has left out the post cards
>that led Bill and Jaime to DC and my earlier visit during which
>I found out that classification review was being done on some
>entries in Record Group 341. These facts are discussed in my
>final Report on Op. Majestic 12 and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Nothing
>like selective choice of data.

Ah, yes, more irrelvant distractions intended to mislead the
reader into believing Friedman knows what he's talking about,
but I don't.

>Furthermore I made a substantial, but unsuccesful, effort to
>determine the identity of the declassification teams which
>handled box 189 within 3 weeks of the death of the last
>survining member of MJ-12 (Jerome Hunsaker) and within 2 weeks
>prior to when Shandera and Moore visited the archives. The
>declassifiers were able to bring in brief cases and were
>certainly in the best position of anybody to plant the CT memo.
>having also had access to whatever box held it in the first
>place.

Yes, but the records also were examined by Archives personnel,
so your theory -- a theory without a shred of credible evidence
to support it -- is just another attempt to distract everybody
away from the persons who likely manufactured the bogus
Cutler-Twining memo, and planted it in the Archives.  And I
think Friedman knows full well that Bill Moore is the most
likely suspect, since Moore told Friedman he planned to
manufacture bogus government documents in an ill-fated attempt
to force the government's hand on Roswell, and Friedman found
the plan acceptable.

It isn't clear what role Friedman played in the manufacture of
the bogus documents, beyond furnishing (wittingly or
unwittingly) the names, dates, and places around which the
documents were built.  No wonder Friedman was able simply to
reach into his own file cabinets to find documents that
seemingly "confirmed" various aspects of the MJ-12 documents,
even _before_ Friedman was shown copies of the actual MJ-12
documents themselves!

But it isn't very likely either Bill Moore or Stan Friedman
will confess to their respective roles in the MJ-12 hoax.

>The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure
>to archival material

And yet I know more about government records systems than
Friedman can ever hope to know.  Go figure.

>and how varied the format, styles, type
>face etc are in the real world. I recall Phil Klass claiming
>that the NSC used elite type.. on the basis of 9 samples he had
>received in the mail. He paid me $1000. because there were at
>least 10 done in PICA type as he certainly would have noticed if
>he had visited the Ike Library.

Ah, yes, the infamous bet with "debunker" Klass, a stupid bet
at best, but one about which Friedman will never stop boasting.
That bet had nothing to do with me.  It is irrelevant, but Friedman
attempts to draw a parallel, thereby suggesting that he is the
brilliant Nuclear Physicist, and I am a wannabe, or soon-to-be,
Phil Klass who doesn't know what he's talking about.  But, I
_do_ know what I'm talking about, and, as a result, I know
Friedman is being dishonest -- but that's hardly news.


>I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an
>enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience.

>Stan Friedman

I strongly recommend that Nuclear Physicist Stan Friedman take
two nuclear physics and call me in the morning, 'cause he's
_really_ full of it!

Robert Todd