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From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:29:03 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:29:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:44:18 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>>From:
>Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>>Subject: Re: Abduction -
>The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 12:17:04 PST

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb
>1999 09:44:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re:
>Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>>>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>From: Mark
>Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>>>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999
>13:54:40 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
><updates@globalserve.net>

>>>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>>>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb
>1999 09:48:26 EST >>>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>>Subject:
>Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>>>And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't
>>>available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible
>>>that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he
>>>didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for
>it >>in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and
>see the >>posters out front displaying the Martians and their
>headgear? >>Could it be that he noticed something from the pop
>culture that, >>for some reason, stuck in his mind and then,
>under the influence >>of hypnosis, recalled that detail?

>>In other words, Kevin, your hypothesis is unfalsifiable.  As
>you >express it, there is no way to prove that Herb Schirmer was
>not >exposed to these images and was, moreover, not influenced
>by >them.  Even if he didn't see the movie, he _must_ have been
>>influenced them. Moreover, even if nothing else in his
>testimony >sounds like anything in this silly SF movie, the
>differences >don't matter, according to you, only the
>similarities.

>Oh, for crying out loud, of course is it unfalsifiable which is
>what I was attempting to show. Even if Schirmer could prove he
>had not gone to the movie, he could easily have seen one of the
>other representations. My point was that he didn't have to see
>the movie to have been exposed to elements of it. That's all.
>Not that he was, not that he did. Only that it was possible.

Kevin,  with all due respect, you have said nothing at all here.
You have demonstrated nothing beyond coincidence.  I have the
feeling, however, that when I read your book, I will find that
you have dismissed Schirmer's experience -- even with its
consciously recalled UFO sighting and puzzling missing time --
as generated in some fashion by this silly movie.

>My point is that as one well known abduction researcher had
>claimed that there were no traditional sci-fi gods or demons
>that could have supplied the inspiration for an abduction
>scenario. Given pop culture, that cannot be said because the
>influences are all around us.

And so are all sorts of other influences, including a zillion
alien types featured in SF, movies, cartoons, and the like that
have no correlate in "real" abduction experiences. Abductees
draw on a startlingly small number of images and motifs.

>>No wonder we're getting nowhere.

>Yes, because we keep arguing over the trivia. Jerry, you seem
>to believe that there are NO pop culture influences in the
>abduction phenomena. I'm only saying there MIGHT be and we had
>better look at it closely rather than ignoring it.

Kevin, there is no such thing as "the abduction phenomena."
Check your dictionary for the difference between "phenomena" and
"phenomenon." There are "abduction phenomena" (missing time,
gray aliens, anomalous scars, and the like), and then there is
"the abduction phenomenon" (the generic issue we're discussing
here).

I have no idea whether or not popular-culture influences exist
in the abduction phenomenon.  Perhaps they do, perhaps they
don't.  All I know is that  I see a lot of sloppily formulated
arguments claiming such connections without demonstrated causal
links.  I hope that when I read your book, I will find that you
have done a better job of it than we've seen here.

Jerry Clark