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From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:39:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400


>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:15 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document

>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document
>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:29:51 -0400

>>>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document

>>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document
>>>>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400

>>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800
>>>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document

>>><snip>

>>>Friedman wrote:

>>>>Let us get facts straight:

>>>Ha! Fat chance!

>>>>1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance
>>>>although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret
>>>>Restricted Data.

>>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims:
>
>>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret
>>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and
>>>Berliner when in the air force."

I have no idea how the sentence got there. No, as I have
repeatedly said I did NOT have a TS clearance.I have however
seen many many TS documents that have been declassified.

>>>The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance.
>>>Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top
>>>secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that
>>>he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for
>>>Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS).

>>><snip>

>>The quoted words are indeed in the book. I repeat I have never
>>had or told anybody I had a TS clearance. There was quite an
>>argument with Richard Boylan about this. I have of course
>>handled a great deal of formerly TS materials in my many
>>archival visits. Bob ought to try a visit.

>Oh, so you mean you _DIDN'T_ handle "materials classified top
>secret and higher... when in the nuclear industry" as you
>claimed in your book?


I made no such claim. I repeat I have handled many formerly TOP
SECRET documents at the Archives Bob has never been to.

>>>>3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5
>>>>formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers,
>>>>whether Ed Stewart likes it or not.

>>>None of those five documents originated from the same place as
>>>the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents
>>>was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force
>>>Headquarters).

Some of the documents originated in the office of Robert Cutler
and were found in the declassified files at LCMD.

>>It is not irrelevant. There are many Air Force documents that
>>Bob might think belong in RG 341, but aren't there whether he
>>likes it or not.

>I _never_ said the documents he found at the Library of Congress
>belonged in RG 341.  This is a complete figment of Friedman's
>imagination.  But I suspect he knows that, and is setting up
>this straw man to distract readers away from his deceptions.

>Again, with respect to TS control numbers, the documents he
>and his other "research team" members found at the Library of
>Congress, _years_ before the fakes showed up, most certainly
>are NOT relevant to whether or not there should have been a TS
>control number on the Cutler-Twining memo Moore/Shandera
>'found' in RG 341.

Of course they are . Some were sent from Cutler to Twining. The
documents prove that not all TS documents from Cutler to Twining
had TS control numbers.

>If Moore or Shandera did not plant the Cutler-Twining memo in
>the Archives, it would have been there legitimately, and the Air
>Force _would_ have assigned a TS control number to it.

This is pure unadulterated hogwash. As has been noted there were
a number of teams of people with high level security clearances
who had direct access to Box 189 (noted  on one of the
postcards). The CT memo certainly didn't belong in the box in
which it was found. Bob wants to believe that means Moore or
Shandera planted it there. Others handled the box and had high
security clearances.  I have  a letter from the Archives
describing that handling

"August 8,l988....Concerning the declassification review  of the
records in Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 341 where the Cutler
memorandum was found. Here are the facts as we know them:

RG 314...Entry 267... An Air Force Officer (major) reviewed  box
189 of Entry 267, RG 341 sometime between September 24 and 28,
l984.[This was about 2 weeks after the death of the last
survining MJ-12 member Jerome Hunsaker] .Review by Records
Declassification Division. Entry 267 was reviewed between May 31
and July 1, l985. Box 189 Speicifically: First review done on
June 20, l985; Second review completed on June 24, l985. Two
items withdrawn from box  on June 24, l985...... It was first
served to researchers in July 1985."

Clearly persons with TS clearances had access to the box3 times
before Moore and Shandera were served the box.

In addition we must note that since there were other TS memos
from Cutler's office to Twining that had no TS control number
that means there could have been ones in RG 341 without them.
Obviously the rules f that office apparently didn't require TOP
SECRET CONTROL numbers on all items.

>has no such control number, which clearly suggests that Moore or
>Shandera planted the document in the files, since even Friedman
>acknowledges that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers
>to examine the files following declassificaion reviews by both

Shandera and Mooore didn't do the declassification. People with
clearances did as noted above. Onemight well have planted it

This again is fallacious reasoning. They went when they did
because I had finally  been told that final Entry 267 had been
classification reviewed. That review had started months before
and I was told about it by Ed Reese at the Archives. II kept in
touch with Jo Ann Williamson as to the progress being made.


>Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel, reviews which
>failed to turn up the Cutler-Twining memo.

One of those reviewers could easily have planted the item there.
Why is that so difficult to understand.?

>Even Friedman has acknowledged that the Cutler-Twining memo was
>planted in the Archives.  But he contends the document was
>planted by somebody on the Air Force declassification team,
>whereas I contend the most likely suspects are Moore and
>Shandera.

It seems clear that the reviewers is much more likely to have
done the planting because he needed access to both the original
location of the memo and Box 189.

>Whether or not the documents the Moore-Shandera-Friedman
>"research team" found at the Library of Congress have TS control
>numbers has _nothing_ whatever to do with the absence of such a
>number on the Cutler-Twining memo, which Moore/Shandera claim
>was 'found' in RG 341 -- _not_ in the Library of Congress.
>Friedman is throwing up a smoke screen in a desperate attempt to
>make himself appear to be right, when in fact he couldn't be
>more wrong.  He is clouding the issue with utter nonsense, which
>is a clear indication of deception on his part.

The memo was definitiely found in a box where, judging by the
subject matter of the other documents therein, it didn't belong.
Therefore it was planted there.

>>For example, the Library of Congress Manuscript
>>Division in Washington has the papers of the first three Chiefs
>>of Staff of the USAF namely Carl Spaatz, Hoyt Vandenberg (MJ-12
>>member), Nathan F. Twining (MJ-12 member.). Much of this
>>material was classified TOP SECRET or Secret. Gradually more and
>>more has been declassified. The amounts are not really trivial.
>>For example, in Twining's case there were about 120 Archive
>>Boxes. One of these ,about Box number 120, had folders labelled
>>TOP SECRET and EYES ONLY. In one of these there were two memos
>>from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the President. One is
>>TOP SECRET EYES ONLY dated July 13, l953.and is a "Memorandum
>>for General Twining" The other is TOP SECRET and is "Memorandum
>>for the Secretary of Defense" dated June 25, l953. Distribution
>>"Wilson 2; Nash 2, Lay 1; Koons 1; President's file 1;"

>Once again, this nonsense simply isn't relevant to the absence
>of a TS control number on a document supposedly 'found' in RG
>341.

>Once again, it is little more than a desperate attempt on
>Friedman's part to hide his deception.  Since he seems to be big
>on labeling people with "mottoes," his seems to be, 'If you
>can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.'
>He's trying his best to baffle readers with irrelevant bullshit,
>hoping they won't catch on to his deceptions.

I will admit that Bob author of the Cowflop is definitly an
expert at BS

>>The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number
>>on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is
>>from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2
>>memos from the same source and in the same file has no control
>>number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG
>>341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all
>>are.

>More attempts to baffle.  His remarks are attempts to distract
>readers away from the real issues.
>
>>>Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading.

A splendid example of a proclamation directly contradicted by
the evidence at hand.

>>>>4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a
>>>>NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the
>>>>Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President.

>>>It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was 'found'
>>>by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the
>>>other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS
>>>control number assigned to it.

>>This statement is FALSE. There are TS documents relating to
>>General Twining in an official classified document repository
>>(Library of Congress Manuscript Division for one) without TS
>>Control numbers and whose provenance is certain. I published
>>some. Cutler's office was at the White House NOT in the
>>Pentagon.

>This statement most certainly is _not_ false!

>Moore/Shandera claim to have 'found' the Cutler-Twining memo in
>one of the entries in RG 341 that contains top secret materials.
>The documents in the entry in which the document supposedly was
>'found' are filed by TS control number -- not by title, not by
>date, not by subject -- just TS control number.

The CT memo clearly didn't belong there. I repeat. There is no
question that the memo didn't belong in Box 189. It had to have
been planted there.

>The _only_ way to access the documents is through the TS control
>numbers.  If Moore or Shandera didn't plant the document in the
>file and then feign 'discovery', that is, if the document really
>was in the RG 341 entry legitimately, the Air Force would have
>assigned a TS control number to the Cutler-Twining memo long
>before it was turned over to the Archives, and the document
>would display that TS control number now.

>The fact that it does not show a TS control number is just one
>of a long list of reasons to believe the document was planted in
>the Archives, a conclusion to which even Friedman subscribes.
>
>Whether or not TS control numbers were used on the records at
>the Library of Congress is _completely_irrelevant_ to any
>discussion of the use of TS control numbers in the RG 341
>materials, and Friedman _has_ to know it is irrelevant, yet he
>pushes this bogus 'explanation' almost as much as he pushes the
>bogus MJ-12 documents.

>>>The number would have been

>>>assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of
>>>course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force
>>>declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for
>>>Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter
>>>to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for
>>>declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel
>>>both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have
>>>surfaced because NSC materials require special handling.

More mind reading the box was handled.

And,

>>>by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first
>>>researchers to review these records following declassification
>>>review. How odd.

>>>Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations.

>>One thing is for sure, If one didn't go looking, the memo would
>>not have been found. But Bob, to the best of my knowledge, has
>>never been to any archive even though, based in Belmont,
>>Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, he is much closer to
>>Washington, DC, than Bill and Jamie in California or me up here
>>in New Brunswick. Bob, of course, has left out the post cards
>>that led Bill and Jaime to DC and my earlier visit during which
>>I found out that classification review was being done on some
>>entries in Record Group 341. These facts are discussed in my
>>final Report on Op. Majestic 12 and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Nothing
>>like selective choice of data.

>Ah, yes, more irrelvant distractions intended to mislead the
>reader into believing Friedman knows what he's talking about,
>but I don't.

>>Furthermore I made a substantial, but unsuccesful, effort to
>>determine the identity of the declassification teams which
>>handled box 189 within 3 weeks of the death of the last
>>survining member of MJ-12 (Jerome Hunsaker) and within 2 weeks
>>prior to when Shandera and Moore visited the archives. The
>>declassifiers were able to bring in brief cases and were
>>certainly in the best position of anybody to plant the CT memo.
>>having also had access to whatever box held it in the first
>>place.

>Yes, but the records also were examined by Archives personnel,
>so your theory -- a theory without a shred of credible evidence
>to support it -- is just another attempt to distract everybody
>away from the persons who likely manufactured the bogus
>Cutler-Twining memo, and planted it in the Archives.  And I
>think Friedman knows full well that Bill Moore is the most
>likely suspect, since Moore told Friedman he planned to
>manufacture bogus government documents in an ill-fated attempt
>to force the government's hand on Roswell, and Friedman found
>the plan acceptable.

>It isn't clear what role Friedman played in the manufacture of
>the bogus documents, beyond furnishing (wittingly or
>unwittingly) the names, dates, and places around which the
>documents were built.  No wonder Friedman was able simply to
>reach into his own file cabinets to find documents that
>seemingly "confirmed" various aspects of the MJ-12 documents,
>even _before_ Friedman was shown copies of the actual MJ-12
>documents themselves!

>But it isn't very likely either Bill Moore or Stan Friedman
>will confess to their respective roles in the MJ-12 hoax.

>>The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure
>>to archival material

>And yet I know more about government records systems than
>Friedman can ever hope to know.  Go figure.

Another baseless claim.

>>and how varied the format, styles, type
>>face etc are in the real world. I recall Phil Klass claiming
>>that the NSC used elite type.. on the basis of 9 samples he had
>>received in the mail. He paid me $1000. because there were at
>>least 10 done in PICA type as he certainly would have noticed if
>>he had visited the Ike Library.

>Ah, yes, the infamous bet with "debunker" Klass, a stupid bet
>at best, but one about which Friedman will never stop boasting.
>That bet had nothing to do with me.  It is irrelevant, but Friedman
>attempts to draw a parallel, thereby suggesting that he is the
>brilliant Nuclear Physicist, and I am a wannabe, or soon-to-be,
>Phil Klass who doesn't know what he's talking about.  But, I
>_do_ know what I'm talking about, and, as a result, I know
>Friedman is being dishonest -- but that's hardly news.

>>I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an
>>enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience.

>>Stan Friedman

>I strongly recommend that Nuclear Physicist Stan Friedman take
>two nuclear physics and call me in the morning, 'cause he's
>_really_ full of it!

>Robert Todd

I take it this ranting is an admission that indeed Bob has never
been to an archive

You have my sympathy Bob.

Stan Friedman