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From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:15:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:29:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse
>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:20:38 PDT

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse
>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:51:08 -0400

>>>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:25:54 +0100
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>>>>At least something like that, for God's sake. Not just bland
>>>>general allegations. Another way to put this, John, is that I'm
>>>>asking how large your sample is, when you say "remember that
>>>>[abduction] claims can wreck people's lives." How many
>>>>abductees, even approximately, do you imagine you know anything
>>>>about, and what percentage of them ruined their lives?

>>>>If you can't answer a question like that, you're just gossiping.

>>>>Greg Sandow

>>>And this from someone who admitted just a few months ago that
>>>abduction researchers don't even have statistics on what
>>>proportion of their subjects are Black, White or Hispanic.

>>Exactly. I stated this very plainly, without first having to be
>>challenged. (Though only concerning Budd Hopkins; I don't know
>>about other researchers).

>>I think I named it as a problem, but if I didn't, I've done so
>>in the past about other missing abduction statistics, such as
>>the percentage of abductees who have the allegedly unexplainable
>>marks Budd so often talks about.

>>Give it up, John. You're not making sense. This isn't a
>>discussion about who's less scientific, abduction researchers or
>>skeptics. I've always said abduction research has problems. It's
>>a discussion about whether you, John Rimmer -- when you say
>>abduction claims have ruined lives -- know what you're talking
>>about.

>>Greg Sandow

>Hi all,

>Has anybody given thought to the idea that the 'wrecked lives'
>and the 'abduction experience' may be just symptoms of some
>other condition?

>Regards,
>Leanne  ];-)

Hi Leanne,

It never ceases to amaze me how witness testimony (when it
relates to UFOs or UFO occupant sightings) can be dismissed or
minimized by declaring/insinuating/assuming that it is the
result of "some other condition." In ufology (for some reason)
all witness testimony is immediately considered suspect when it
is a UFO _occupant_ incident that is being reported. It must be
"something else" or some other "condition" as you so
indelicately phrase it.

I watched a program the other night where the case of the
Allagash four was being discussed. One of our list members had
participated and his judgement of the case was that; "They had a
UFO sighting alright, that much is certain." But, he drew the
line at the possibility that there could have been any
interaction between the witnesses/victims and the occupants of
the UFO.  He was ready to acknowledge the UFO but not the
possibilty that it was occupied by someone(s) who may have had a
reason for persuing these four human specimens. The UFO report
involved a _chase_. Why does anyone "chase" something if not for
the purpose of "catching" it! That there could not have been any
interaction with the crafts' occupants was not a logical
conclusion to arrive at if one had accepted the part of the
report of a frightening close encounter with a UFO. At that
point the interpretation becomes a manifestation of individual
denial and the act of someone who is being (subjectively)
selective about _what_parts_ of any given testimony he or she is
going to give credence to. I'll believe this part, but I won't
believe that part because it doesn't fit into my personal world
view. What is that?

Greg asks John Rimmer to give him 'numbers and sources' for his
claim that so many lives have been "wrecked by abduction." Of
course John could never provide such statistics because he would
have had to conduct a major/monumental survey in order to
acquire them. No such survey has ever been conducted. And in all
fairness to John neither have any of the so-called abduction
researchers taken such a survey. All Greg will get out of John
in response to his request will be more of the finger-pointing
and rhetoric that he's been getting. ex:

>abduction researchers don't even have statistics on what
>proportion of their subjects are Black, White or Hispanic.

Don't hold yer breath waiting for hard numbers from either side.
The 'investigation' into the UFO abduction phenomenon (with rare
exception) has to be one of the most incompetent and mismanaged
investigations in the history of mankind. Nothing short of sad
and laughable. Keystone Cops stuff with all concerned stumbling
and tripping all over themselves. _Everybody_ dropped the ball
on this one! The depth of our ignorance and stupidity is truly
profound.

I'm pretty much of a mind that the _only_ thing that is _ever_
going to convince anyone is if they experience it/see it all for
themselves. My concern is that by the time the reality of UFOs
and alien abduction becomes common knowledge (and I'm
_completely_ confident it will be one day) it may be way too
late to do anything about it if our "visitors" aren't here for
purely benevolent reasons. Gotta wake up before it's too late.

Peace,

John Velez




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                    ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
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