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From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 03:38:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:59:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:35:21 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>>Re: Satanic Abuse

>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:15:46 -0400
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:29:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:20:38 PDT

>Previously, Leanne offered this reasonable idea:

>>>Has anybody given thought to the idea that the 'wrecked lives'
>>>and the 'abduction experience' may be just symptoms of some
>>>other condition?

>John replied:

>>It never ceases to amaze me how witness testimony (when it
>>relates to UFOs or UFO occupant sightings) can be dismissed or
>>minimized by declaring/insinuating/assuming that it is the
>>result of "some other condition." In ufology (for some reason)
>>all witness testimony is immediately considered suspect when it
>>is a UFO _occupant_ incident that is being reported. It must be
>>"something else" or some other "condition" as you so
>>indelicately phrase it.

><snip>

>>At that
>>point the interpretation becomes a manifestation of individual
>>denial and the act of someone who is being (subjectively)
>>selective about _what_parts_ of any given testimony he or she is
>>going to give credence to. I'll believe this part, but I won't
>>believe that part because it doesn't fit into my personal world
>>view. What is that?

Roger wrote:

>Hi, John.

>"What is that?"

>Well, to be quite frank, it's exactly what _you_ do. It's also
>what I do. It's what anyone does with no facts or evidence or
>proof regarding a given situation.

There _is_ a difference Roger. I understand what you are saying
in regard to folks who are 'studying' the phenomenon, but my
"beliefs and convictions" are based on very personal experience.
I have seen these things at _uncomfortably_ close range. I'm not
talking about anything 'nebulous' either. I'm talking about an
undeniable experience, (in broad daylight and in the company
other witnesses) one that quite literally robs you of any
possibility for entertaining a 'alternate explanations.' Life
experiences such as what I have described have a way of
effecting you deeply and leaving you with a sense of genuine
urgency and strong opinions in regard to existing investigation
efforts. Especially when those investigative efforts seem
directed at just about anything and everything with the rather
odd _exception_ of what is actually being reported.

So it's not a matter of "show me" or "where's the proof" for me.
It's about an uphill fight to be taken seriously and at one's
word. And not just for myself either. I imagine that in 1999
values like that sounds about as "strange" as reports UFOs or
alien abductions, but _that_ is where I am coming from/
responding from. (Regardless of how others may be interpreting
my words or intentions.)

>So unless you have undeniable proof hidden away that has
>never been shared with this list, then you are also "being
>(subjectively) selective about what parts of any given testimony
>you give credence to."

I already have (my) "undeniable proof" Roger. I have no idea
what may constitute "undeniable proof" for you or anyone else.
That's why I wrote the following in my original:

>>I'm pretty much of a mind that the _only thing_ that is _ever_
>>going to convince anyone is if they experience it/see it all for
>>themselves.

I cannot "arrange" for such an experience or "undeniable proof"
for anyone. Sorry. It just seems that we live in time when a
mans' word means less than nothing, (crying shame) and that it
is ok and proper to investigate or entertain just about any
explanation as long as it isn't the one that is actually being
reported.

>After all, what other choice do any of us really have? All of
>us, including you, are just guessing.

Not so for "all of us" Roger. Reread the above.  :)

>However, we do so using
>our own individual belief system based on what's important to
>each of us.

You're wrong fella. I don't base any of my "beliefs" re: UFOs
and alien abduction solely on "what's important to me." It is
based on _direct_ life experience. Seems like today many have
become convinced that their own senses cannot be trusted. I am
not among those. I know what I have seen and experienced in the
full light of day (and consciousness) and among others who could
corroborate it.

No one should base their opinions or beliefs solely on "what is
important to them" as you say. Beliefs -should always have- much
stronger underpinnings than that. I question everything Roger. I
did't come by any of my convictions easily or casually.

>Leanne simply guesses in a way that "doesn't fit
>into your personal world view," as you put it.

Leanne is entitled to any "guesses" she may care to take. I was
responding to her use of the term "condition" (implying
something other than an _actual_experience_) when referring to
reports of UFO abduction. Like I said, it would be nice to see
some folks investigating what is being reported _first_ before
creating explanations that they are comfortable with.  I don't
recall seeing any reports of abduction or UFO sightings that
were prefaced by; "because of my 'condition' I saw or
experienced the following." Reports, especially contact reports
from reputable, honest people should be checked out like cops
do, _as they are reported_ before allowing ones own personal
speculations to enter the picture.

>Chill out, dude. These are just tiny little words on a CRT.

Words are so powerful Roger. Whole civilisations have been
formed and turned on mere words. There are few things in life
with as much power as "tiny little words."

I'm not 'excited' or 'upset' Roger. Don't need to "chill." But,
I do hope it is ok with you if like Leanne, I too express my
"beliefs and convictions."  :)

This has wandered far from the theme of the original thread
which was not my intention. Just wanted to add a comment or two
is all. It shouldn't be interpreted or taken as my trying to
impose my beliefs or convictions on anyone. Like everyone else
on the list, I am simply expressing myself and my thoughts.
Nothing personal intended or taken.

Peace,

John Velez, Witness/Experiencer
________________________________________________
                                 jvif@spacelab.net
                    ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com/
 "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________