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From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:02:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 15:37:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse


>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 03:38:25 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:35:21 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>>>Re: Satanic Abuse

Hello list,

>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:15:46 -0400
>>>Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:29:30 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse

>>>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Re: Satanic Abuse
>>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:20:38 PDT

>>Previously, Leanne offered this reasonable idea:

>>>>Has anybody given thought to the idea that the 'wrecked lives'
>>>>and the 'abduction experience' may be just symptoms of some
>>>>other condition?

Not every one's life is wrecked but it cetrainly says that
someone or, ah, something is messing with our minds - if not
bodies. No I haven't met any aliens, nor have I been abducted.

>>John replied:

>>>It never ceases to amaze me how witness testimony (when it
>>>relates to UFOs or UFO occupant sightings) can be dismissed or
>>>minimized by declaring/insinuating/assuming that it is the
>>>result of "some other condition." In ufology (for some reason)
>>>all witness testimony is immediately considered suspect when it
>>>is a UFO _occupant_ incident that is being reported. It must be
>>>"something else" or some other "condition" as you so
>>>indelicately phrase it.

I agree, I can show in my logbook that I flew DC-6's & 7's, back
it up with certificates and paystubs, but I defy you to prove
that I actually flew a Corben 'Baby Ace'!

The Ace was a 1930's vintage Homebilt aircraft. I never logged
the time. I can tell you I did, but anyone who didn't witness the
event(s)  would say I was a liar - first of all what is a Corben
Ace, anyway and why do I claim such an irrational event? (If
you knew how badly the 'Ace' flew maybe irrational isn't out of
the question.)


<snipped with respect>

>It's about an uphill fight to be taken seriously and at one's
>word. And not just for myself either. I imagine that in 1999
>values like that sounds about as "strange" as reports UFOs or
>alien abductions, but _that_ is where I am coming from/
>responding from. (Regardless of how others may be interpreting
>my words or intentions.)

Not to me they don't

>>So unless you have undeniable proof hidden away that has
>>never been shared with this list, then you are also "being
>>(subjectively) selective about what parts of any given testimony
>>you give credence to."

>I already have (my) "undeniable proof" Roger. I have no idea
>what may constitute "undeniable proof" for you or anyone else.
>That's why I wrote the following in my original:

>>>I'm pretty much of a mind that the _only thing_ that is _ever_
>>>going to convince anyone is if they experience it/see it all for
>>>themselves.

You know this is very like the theory of Shrodnger's
Cat-Observation's the thing if you don't observe it - it doesn't
happen-right?

>I cannot "arrange" for such an experience or "undeniable proof"
>for anyone. Sorry. It just seems that we live in time when a
>mans' word means less than nothing, (crying shame) and that it
>is ok and proper to investigate or entertain just about any
>explanation as long as it isn't the one that is actually being
>reported.

Yes, even if one could arrange such an event, I'm now so
cynical that a Trafalmadorian scout ship on the White House Lawn
wouldn't even get the front page: "Police ticket unruly
Trafalmadorians of illegal parking." Then: "Trafalmadorians
deported, vow to return." (With battle fleet or course, but we
don't know it - or care,'don't worry be happy'.)


>>After all, what other choice do any of us really have? All of
>>us, including you, are just guessing.

>Not so for "all of us" Roger. Reread the above.  :)

>>However, we do so using
>>our own individual belief system based on what's important to
>>each of us.

>You're wrong fella. I don't base any of my "beliefs" re: UFOs
>and alien abduction solely on "what's important to me." It is
>based on _direct_ life experience. Seems like today many have
>become convinced that their own senses cannot be trusted. I am
>not among those. I know what I have seen and experienced in the
>full light of day (and consciousness) and among others who could
>corroborate it.

Hey, all I've had was a "In the sheet metal" experience, (and a
couple of other experiences that were not quite that ah, vivid)
but what I saw was _real_ not swamp gas of a helicopter sling
loading earthlights, but somthing _real_ - sorry.

>This has wandered far from the theme of the original thread
>which was not my intention. Just wanted to add a comment or two
>is all. It shouldn't be interpreted or taken as my trying to
>impose my beliefs or convictions on anyone. Like everyone else
>on the list, I am simply expressing myself and my thoughts.
>Nothing personal intended or taken.


You have spoken well John, unless it happens to you personally,
no one will ever undestand, and all the muddled thinking and
opinions won't change what experiencers have see/done or
(shudder) have had done to them.

-GT McCoy