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From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:17:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:32:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:25:18 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:07:55 -0600

 >>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:48:29 -0400
 >>>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Andy wrote (snip):

 >>>...Criminal courts are dealing with flesh and blood human
 >>>beings (dead or alive), whose physical existence is without
 >>>doubt. ET believers have no such physical proof. None,
 >>>whatsoever.

Sue Responds-

 >>Wrong. Read again my July 4 and July 19 postings to UFO UpDates.

 >>(clip from July 19th)..."I have conscious recall of how I got
 >>those burns...from an errant laser beam attached to a
 >>transporter, in my bedroom in 1961 with many "visitors" present.
 >>Do I expect you to believe that? No. You weren't there.

 >>(clip from July 4th posting).."I can tell you, that in 1961,
 >>there was no government experimenting on children in their
 >>bedrooms with 3-dimensional laser-built transporters that could
 >>move into the 4th dimension (through walls). We could barely get
 >>into orbit as I recall. Is that enough "proof" for others? I
 >>don't know. It certainly is for me. Pain is a great reality
 >>check."

 >>Your argument doesn't hold up with the thousands of people who
 >>have experienced such incidents, and have the proof of the scars
 >>to prove it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has conscious
 >>recall of how they were used and abused.

 >>Start looking for similar people, people.

 >>Sue

I seriously doubt there are "thousands" who who believe they
were taken by UFOs, though I think if we include people who have
a similar weird experience and don't neccessarily attribute it
to UFOs, we may be that high in count. And I especially doubt
there are thousands who have unexplained scars to 'prove' it, or
even fully conscious memory of it.

As for the scar, I must, unfortunately, at least at this point,
file it in along with the other examples of evidence and alleged
independently witnessed events which are tossed out offhandedly
and held up as proof, and unfortunately, not properly
investigated or documented, if investigated or documented at
all, sometimes proclaimed to be "outside the boundaries" of
evidence we should be allowed to investigate when followed up
on. Anectdotes are simply different from evidence.

BTW, I am not specifically aiming that as an insult to you, Sue,
I am just stating that all of these things _could_ prove
intriguing, but too often they never become nothing more than
comments in a thread of discussion, which by itself means
nothing.

And from Jim-

 >Your name is Sue!  How do you do?

 >I am so sorry to be the first (or the hundredth) to tell you
 >this, Sue, but what is in your memory or mine, matters not one
 >dot to the person with the closed mind.  He or she will assign
 >some reason or other with which to demean the memory.

 >Undigested beef, hallucination (you were probably on extra
 >strength Excedrin or something) and blah, blah.

I have to be honest and break the unspoken rule by saying that I
think of the many people who claim such experiences, a fair
number really _do_ hallucinate or lie *gasp*, are insane, or are
very suggestable. Many have probably pieced together some hazy
memories (with or without the help of books, and 'abduction
researchers and support groups') and formed a total belief
structure around the events. Many have also made close bonds
with other 'abductees' and in a sense, even established some
sense of identity as 'an experiencer', making it even more
difficult for such beliefs to change, should specific evidence
to the contrary or personal doubts arise.

And some probably have/do not. But even if I did 'believe in
abductions' (meaning hold the opinion that some people have been
physically taken by UFO occupants) doesn't mean I would believe
that everyone who claims it has actually had this experience.

Note I said some of people who claim these experiences, not all.
Still, admitting that is amost like admitting you own the local
peep show or adult bookstore (inquire for details next time
you're in my home base of pensacola/gulf breeze- "UFO capital of
the world- for a free coupon).

 >The real answer from any skeptic should be, "I don't know what
 >happened to you, however it is not in my paradigm to believe it
 >was anything but something "natural" and merely misconstrued."
 >Or whatever....

 >The real answer from any experiencer should be, "I don't know
 >what happened to me, but I can tell you exactly what my mind
and
 >memory saw and what my body felt."  Someone is gonna hafta
 >convince me exactly what it was and _prove_ it before my mind
 >attaches to anything but what it was to me and for me.

<snip>

Of course I agree with you regarding the attitude anyone
involved with this stuff should take, but as can be witnessed,
everyone involved gets out of line at some point. Some folks
more than others, but I agree that we should strive to keep our
heads clear.... well, at least when we are debating, as for
other times.... *grin*

Jim, I can't say I know you well at all, but I do know you well
enough to know that you believe what you say. Now I know, thats
not a massive step, but is the first one, and we have to move
slowly or we'll stumble or run of a cliff, and on the other
hand, not so slowly that nothing gets done.

But let's say, hypothetically, that everyone on this list now
'believes' that abductions are real? Now what is required? And
_what_ exactly DO we believe? Do we believe that they fly here
from space and we must work on some way to shoot them down? But
what if another of the many alleged abductees says they use
widgetry Gripple fueled technology to warp here or teleport? Who
do we believe? We can't really find out, we can just believe,
and whose account do we believe? Do we work on some way to foil
their hybrid program? wait, a lot of abductees don't even
believe that. And again, if we decide to shoot them down, what
are they made of so we know what to build? We can't look at one,
and we don't study them, we just believe in them. Btw, do the
beings float through walls, or not? Depends who you ask, I
think. We've not been able to catch them on video to see, but
never the less, we believe in them now. Can they bleed, or are
they robots? Maybe we should get the environment in shape,
because they seem to care about that- wait, actually they seem
to not care much at all and are just cold scientists. What about
the contactees, I'll add? Or were they just 'hallucinating' or
full of bs? So, what are the specifics here we are being asked
to believe? They differ from experiencer to experiencer, and
some of these differences are glaring. Belief alone won't get us
anywhere even if everyone _is_ 'won over.' The exception (an
important one, I add) is more help for people who have to deal
with these events in their lives.

Other than belief, what is wanted, and how are we going to
get/accomplish it without the evidence it is suggested we should
stop asking for?

Tim

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TBrigham@ksinc.net
http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate  The Devil's Advocate
http://zap.to/MindPhuck  Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
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