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From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:44:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:26:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:17:27 -0500


 >I seriously doubt there are "thousands" who who believe they
 >were taken by UFOs, though I think if we include people who have
 >a similar weird experience and don't neccessarily attribute it
 >to UFOs, we may be that high in count. And I especially doubt
 >there are thousands who have unexplained scars to 'prove' it, or
 >even fully conscious memory of it.

 >As for the scar, I must, unfortunately, at least at this point,
 >file it in along with the other examples of evidence and alleged
 >independently witnessed events which are tossed out offhandedly
 >and held up as proof, and unfortunately, not properly
 >investigated or documented, if investigated or documented at
 >all, sometimes proclaimed to be "outside the boundaries" of
 >evidence we should be allowed to investigate when followed up
 >on. Anectdotes are simply different from evidence.

 >BTW, I am not specifically aiming that as an insult to you, Sue,
 >I am just stating that all of these things _could_ prove
 >intriguing, but too often they never become nothing more than
 >comments in a thread of discussion, which by itself means
 >nothing.

 >And from Jim-

 >>Your name is Sue!  How do you do?

 >>I am so sorry to be the first (or the hundredth) to tell you
 >>this, Sue, but what is in your memory or mine, matters not one
 >>dot to the person with the closed mind.  He or she will assign
 >>some reason or other with which to demean the memory.

 >>Undigested beef, hallucination (you were probably on extra
 >>strength Excedrin or something) and blah, blah.

 >I have to be honest and break the unspoken rule by saying that I
 >think of the many people who claim such experiences, a fair
 >number really _do_ hallucinate or lie *gasp*, are insane, or are
 >very suggestable. Many have probably pieced together some hazy
 >memories (with or without the help of books, and 'abduction
 >researchers and support groups') and formed a total belief
 >structure around the events. Many have also made close bonds
 >with other 'abductees' and in a sense, even established some
 >sense of identity as 'an experiencer', making it even more
 >difficult for such beliefs to change, should specific evidence
 >to the contrary or personal doubts arise.

I hate it when people makes sense on this list.  Then I have no
excuse to overdue my Gripple testing.... damn!

 >And some probably have/do not. But even if I did 'believe in
 >abductions' (meaning hold the opinion that some people have been
 >physically taken by UFO occupants) doesn't mean I would believe
 >that everyone who claims it has actually had this experience.

Neither would I.  But it too often seems that on finding a
truth, either for or against the subject, the "for's" claim
complete vindication as do the "agin's"  In my book, this merely
exacerbates the closed mind theory, which is unacceptable (to
me, at least).

 >Note I said some of people who claim these experiences, not
 >all. Still, admitting that is amost like admitting you own the
 >local peep show or adult bookstore (inquire for details next
 >time you're in my home base of pensacola/gulf breeze- "UFO
 >capital of the world- for a free coupon).

The mayor of New York City, which is about 30 miles from here,
(his name is Himmler, I think) has closed most of these peep
show stores as their being against the local "quality of living"
standards adopted by the newly formed "Neuischer Gestapo
Politzei."  So I'll be down in a few days.  Just make sure the
Booby Trap in Orlando is accepting your coupons.  Thanks.

 >>The real answer from any skeptic should be, "I don't know what
 >>happened to you, however it is not in my paradigm to believe it
 >>was anything but something "natural" and merely misconstrued."
 >>Or whatever....

 >>The real answer from any experiencer should be, "I don't know
 >>what happened to me, but I can tell you exactly what my mind
 >and
 >>memory saw and what my body felt."  Someone is gonna hafta
 >>convince me exactly what it was and _prove_ it before my mind
 >>attaches to anything but what it was to me and for me.

 ><snip>

 >Of course I agree with you regarding the attitude anyone
 >involved with this stuff should take, but as can be witnessed,
 >everyone involved gets out of line at some point. Some folks
 >more than others, but I agree that we should strive to keep our
 >heads clear.... well, at least when we are debating, as for
 >other times.... *grin*

 >Jim, I can't say I know you well at all, but I do know you well
 >enough to know that you believe what you say. Now I know, thats
 >not a massive step, but is the first one, and we have to move
 >slowly or we'll stumble or run of a cliff, and on the other
 >hand, not so slowly that nothing gets done.

There you go making sense again.  Better slow down or Dr.
Kanappy might black list you.... or me.... somebody!

 >But let's say, hypothetically, that everyone on this list now
 >'believes' that abductions are real? Now what is required? And
 >_what_ exactly DO we believe? Do we believe that they fly here
 >from space and we must work on some way to shoot them down? But
 >what if another of the many alleged abductees says they use
 >widgetry Gripple fueled technology to warp here or teleport? Who
 >do we believe? We can't really find out, we can just believe,
 >and whose account do we believe? Do we work on some way to foil
 >their hybrid program? wait, a lot of abductees don't even
 >believe that. And again, if we decide to shoot them down, what
 >are they made of so we know what to build? We can't look at one,
 >and we don't study them, we just believe in them. Btw, do the
 >beings float through walls, or not? Depends who you ask, I
 >think. We've not been able to catch them on video to see, but
 >never the less, we believe in them now. Can they bleed, or are
 >they robots? Maybe we should get the environment in shape,
 >because they seem to care about that- wait, actually they seem
 >to not care much at all and are just cold scientists. What about
 >the contactees, I'll add? Or were they just 'hallucinating' or
 >full of bs? So, what are the specifics here we are being asked
 >to believe? They differ from experiencer to experiencer, and
 >some of these differences are glaring. Belief alone won't get us
 >anywhere even if everyone _is_ 'won over.' The exception (an
 >important one, I add) is more help for people who have to deal
 >with these events in their lives.

 >Other than belief, what is wanted, and how are we going to
 >get/accomplish it without the evidence it is suggested we should
 >stop asking for?

For me, belief is _not_ what I seek from anyyone.  What I
_expect_ is an open mind, what I demand is that _no one_ claim
to have the unvarnished truth or _the_ absolute truth regarding
this issue. Simply because the knowledge of this truth does not
exist in our minds as yet. What I cannot fathom is anyone
claiming to know the truth.  There is nothing wrong with
investigating, enquiring, researching.  But until and when the
proof reveals itself one way or another, I will Gripple every
closed mind until he or she is irrevocably sensless under the
affluence of inkahol.

At least that way, they sound, look and act silly.  Their way,
they merely look, sound and act stupidly.

Sorry.  I ran out of booze early this morning and I can't do a
thing with me.

Jim