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From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:58:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 17:58:12 -0400
Subject: Re: The Challenge

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:17:40 EDT
 >Subject: Re: The Challenge
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:48:43 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Lynne Bishop <lynnebishop@softhome.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Challenge

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:09:42 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: The Challenge
 >>>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:28:51 -0700>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: Lynne Bishop <lynnebishop@softhome.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Challenge

 >>>John Velez said <snipped for brevity>:
 >>>Everyone should take the time to write to Budd Hopkins, David
 >>>Jacobs, John Mack, Ray Fowler, John Carpenter et al and -ask
 >>>them- to collectively contribute any materials they may be in
 >>>possession of that may help to advance what little is known
 >>>about UFO abductions. If it turns out that they _don't_ have
 >>>anything of value in stock then that fact should also be known.
 > ______________________________
 >>>KRandle responded:
 >>>I think you might have found the problem. There is nothing in
 >>>stock of value.
 > ______________________________


Kevin wrote:

 >Okay, since this is the comment that has evoked the majority of
 >the responses, let us revisit it.
 >
 >John Velez suggested that if there was nothing of value in the
 >hidden data of the abduction researchers, then we should know
 >it, meaning, I believe, that all information should be shared.
 >John, if I have misinterpreted your meaning here, I apologize.
 >
 >The key words are "all information." And I didn't try to weight
 >it all to one side, or to paint it all one color. I meant, after
 >an independent analysis of any materials gathered, the results
 >(whether fer or agin) should be made known to the general
 >public. It would be nice to see the results of such a study
 >published in an 'acknowledged' academic journal. In your
 >original response you had admonished me to be ready to  face the
 >possibility that there is nothing of value (or nothing at all)
 >in the evidence bins of the more well known authors and
 >investigators. That's fine. But, as Lynne has already pointed
 >out, the possibility that there -may be- 'something' there is
 >just as credible at this early stage. A point that you neglected
 >to mention in your first response.

Kevin, what I had hoped would happen was that folks would begin
to think about ways to get the people who claim to have this
physical evidence to finally -do something- with it. As in,
having an independent analysis performed. Unless pressure is
brought to bear on these individuals, there is simply no way
it'll ever happen on its own. "Someone" has to get the ball
rolling on this one. The debate/argument over abduction has
raged on for over 20 years. Isn't about time somebody -not
connected to the abduction authors and investigators- finally
took a close and thorough look at this material? That, was the
"Challenge."

With this I agree. However, I added the condition that the
researcher who discovered the information be allowed to reveal
it for the proper credit. Those who have conducted the research
are certainly the ones who should determine when, where and how
it will be revealed.

It's been twenty+ years Kevin. So far, no one has stepped up to
the plate and volunteered their data for independent analysis.
Of course -all- credit and acknowledgement should go to those
who collected it. I even mentioned that they could all be
invited to submit individual 'White Papers' to be included in
the final published version of the analysis results.

"Proper credit" is not the issue. 'Voluntary participation' in
such a study is. How long is the public supposed to wait to find
out what, if anything, these folks have in terms of 'hard
evidence.' Frankly I grow weary of waiting for it to happen by
itself.

If past is prologue, then I believe you'd have a better shot at
seeing Hell freeze over before any of them voluntarily submit
their data for analysis by third party!

I then added the comment that I believed that John might have
discovered the problem and that was that there were no hidden
data that would answer our questions. This means, quite simply,
that there may not be any evidence of a conclusive, independent,
and scientific nature that would lead to the extraterrestrial,
or any of the other hypotheses, that surround the tales of
abduction. I meant, quite simply, that this might be the reason
that nothing has been revealed because there is nothing to
reveal.

No Kevin. I went out of my way not to weight it one way or the
other. -Both- possibilities exist with equal chance. They 'may'
or 'may not' have anything. The point (once again) is that no
one knows because these guys haven't submitted any of it for
testing! Until/unless -public pressure- is applied I don't see
them voluntarily submitting it themselves.

If it turns out as you say, that they have nothing at all, then
that fact will become very clear early in the proceedings. We
will have gotten some answers to important questions (ie; do
they have any physical evidence) immediately. And with a minimum
of expended effort. If they do have materials to submit for
testing, for God's sake let's see it and find out if has any
value as "proof" for a physical phenomenon.

Here, until all the data are in hand, we have little more than
speculations.

Now you're coming around to where I started out at! I was hoping
that folks would begin to brainstorm what it would take to make
such a thing happen. (Strategy)

It was my speculation that the reason here was that the
physical, independent, corroborative data simply did not exist.
That would be the reason that nothing had been revealed. There
was nothing to reveal.

I -could have- speculated that there may be hard evidence there.
I refrained from it. You should have done the same. The object
would be to remove the element of 'speculation' by replacing it
with proven/known fact. "Speculations" (whichever way they are
slanted) is about all we've had since the beginning. (Re;
abductions)

Hey man, I thought you were the Dr! Why am -I- telling -you- all
this!  <eg>

Does this mean that we shouldn't look? Of course not. We always
have to look, because the one time we don't might be the one
time that there is something of substance there. I would not
advocate a position of refusing to look.

Yet you give voice to speculations that there is nothing there
without giving equal time to its opposing possibility. Think
about that Kevin. It's why Lynne responded to the thread
originally.

So, not to put too fine a point on it, I was merely speculating
that John might have been right when he suggested that if there
was nothing of value in these hidden files, we should learn
that. I was suggesting that the reason the files have not been
made public is because there was nothing of value in them...
meaning that the evidence would not be conclusive. It was a
speculation based on prior experience and was a suggestion that
we not be too disappointed if nothing new was learned.

Let's all band together and -find out- once and for all! I
"challenge" you and anyone else who reads this to do what they
can (I suggested writing to the investigators as one possible
course of action) to make a study of this material a reality.
Unless everyone gets involved and the demand made with a
collective strong voice there is simply no motivation for them
to comply on their own.

Hit em in the book sales and conference attendance and watch how
rapidly they become willing to participate! I'm an -activist-
Kevin. I didn't want to spark another 'debate.' I was hoping to
rouse folks to -action.- We desperately need some answers to
basic questions. Unless all of us grab the bull by the horns and
shake it out, it will not be forthcoming on its own.

I hope this clears up any questions you may have had as to what
I did or did not mean.

John Velez, abductee/experiencer
________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________